Fort McMurray mandatory evac

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rigpiggy
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by rigpiggy »

Hey rockie, I'm in this end of the world and have an idea. Stay in yyz, and let us run our own house
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Rockie
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by Rockie »

rigpiggy wrote:I'm in this end of the world and have an idea.
Your "idea" is flatly rejected by responsible authorities.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ ... -1.3570772

On a positive note, the RCMP say there has only been one known incident of a break in and the individual has been arrested. More kudos to the people of Ft. Mac.
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rigpiggy
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by rigpiggy »

Yep their responsible alright
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7ECA
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by 7ECA »

Come on Rockie, you know if the news isn't coming from the "Rebel" rigpiggy just isn't going to believe it.
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Rockie
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by Rockie »

Speaking of the Rebel, Ezra's blaming the fire on "environmental extremists" because they wouldn't let the province eliminate all the vegetation for miles around every town in Alberta as a preemptive fire break.
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co-joe
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by co-joe »

Rockie wrote:Speaking of the Rebel, Ezra's blaming the fire on "environmental extremists" because they wouldn't let the province eliminate all the vegetation for miles around every town in Alberta as a preemptive fire break.
I think a lot of remote cities and towns would be wise to revisit what constitutes a "fire break". YOD, YLB, YWM, YZH, and YPE are all surrounded by the same section of the boreal forest that YMM is. YQU is the only northern AB town in the clear. I think a lot of people would willing to see a 1 mile field around their city, heck the insurance companies will be on the hook for Billions and may push for it. These little cut lines they call fire breaks pretty much don't do $hit.

Fly safe homies.
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7ECA
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by 7ECA »

Funny mentioning fire breaks - the BBC mentioned a comment made by an Alberta provincial spokesperson about firebreaks around Fort Mac. The question was something along the lines of why weren't any constructed to prevent the fire from entering the town. The spokesperson said because this fire is growing and moving too rapidly for them to be effective. The fire jumped the approximately 1KM wide Athabasca River in Fort Mac with no issue - and when fires act in this manner good luck creating any break large enough to slow them up.
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North Shore
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by North Shore »

^ Oh, sure, but if places had a 2 or 300 yard buffer of deciduous trees, or grass around them, then some of the heat gets taken out of the fire before it butts up against buildings. Mandating metal roofs on buildings might help, also.
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bandaid
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by bandaid »

I do not respond often to any of the posts on here but feel, for a change, that I am experienced enough as a first responder to comment. Those that chose to stay behind after an evacuation order has been dropped should be charged with reckless endangerment. It's one thing to risk your own life it's totally another to risk first responder's lives.
I have also been ordered out of my house two summers ago. It is heart breaking to think that all you have worked for could be lost. I know you have all heard that it is just stuff but in truth that is what it is. The memories can't be burned away.
I commend all the fire fighters on the ground and in the air, paramedics, police and anyone else who may have not only lost their own homes but are staying behind to protect what has not been burnt away. Special people doing impossible things under impossible circumstances. Stay safe.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by iflyforpie »

A permanent fire break can be very effective if the fuels are thinned inside it and it is augmented by back burning when a fire approaches.

But the Rebel probably isn't too far off the mark, Rockie. God damn NIMBYS, BANANAS (Build Absolute Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody), CAVE people (Citizens Against Virtually Anything), and Saltspring Islanders (the worst) don't really like people cutting down trees for anything.
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Rockie
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by Rockie »

You can't build a preemptive fire break around every town and it wouldn't have slowed this fire down anyway. The fact environmentalists aren't fans of cutting down trees has nothing to do with it - neither are oil workers because everybody likes trees to look at especially on their own property.

You cut them down to make a fire break as necessary when there's a fire.

Ezra's full of s**t as usual.
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Shady McSly
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by Shady McSly »

Rockie wrote:You cut them down to make a fire break as necessary when there's a fire.

Based on your vast fire suppression experience? Where did you work?
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by tbaylx »

Rockie wrote:You can't build a preemptive fire break around every town and it wouldn't have slowed this fire down anyway. The fact environmentalists aren't fans of cutting down trees has nothing to do with it - neither are oil workers because everybody likes trees to look at especially on their own property.

You cut them down to make a fire break as necessary when there's a fire.

Ezra's full of s**t as usual.
Considering the speed the fire moved at I don't think that's realistic.

The reason the oil sands operations themselves aren't too concerned about the fire is because they have a several hundred (thousand?) meter fire break already constructed. You can't wait until the fire starts then start chopping stuff down. It's either in place before hand or you choose not to do it for whatever reasons you may have.

Doesn't happen often where a fire does this much damage, but when it does it's devastating.

Ironically I've heard argue that the reason fires are getting larger and more difficult to deal with is because we're putting them out so effectively for the most part. No fires= no natural clearing of deadwood and renewal of old forests, so the stuff you have left is a tinderbox on a dry season like this.
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Rockie
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by Rockie »

Shady McSly wrote:Based on your vast fire suppression experience? Where did you work?
You have no idea what my experience with this is or where I've worked. Besides that, do you think you need to be a fire suppression expert to know what a fire break is or that they're built in front of actual fires?
tbaylx wrote:Considering the speed the fire moved at I don't think that's realistic.
No it's not at all realistic where this fire is concerned as copious reports clearly indicate. This thing jumps over a kilometer at a time.
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digits_
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by digits_ »

I am wondering how a fire crosses a 1 km wide river. Does it heat up the air soo much that it ignites trees 1 km further away ? Is drift wood on fire crossing the river ? Something else ?
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7ECA
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by 7ECA »

digits_ wrote:I am wondering how a fire crosses a 1 km wide river. Does it heat up the air soo much that it ignites trees 1 km further away ? Is drift wood on fire crossing the river ? Something else ?
Probably in a similar manner to how the Kelowna fires spread in 2003, flying embers and very high winds.
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cgzro
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by cgzro »

I imagine that once a fire reaches that level of intensity that the thermals are incredibly powerful and can carry significant bits of burning lumber not just ash high into the air and downwind.

Not sure what could be done, even metal roofs and stucco/brick etc. won't be enough. I guess you need to be extremely aggressive with catching fires very early, but then of course each year the fuel load accumulates.
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by North Shore »

digits_ wrote:I am wondering how a fire crosses a 1 km wide river. Does it heat up the air soo much that it ignites trees 1 km further away ? Is drift wood on fire crossing the river ? Something else ?

A large fire can have 200 foot flames coming off the head, and has huge amounts of thermal energy being released. It will kick up small branches, pinecones, etc, and can carry them a long way downwind. All those embers have to do is land in a spot conducive to burning (dry grass, leaves, needles, etc..) with a strong wind blowing (as was the case in YMM), and it's off again..If you look at some of the 'Escape from McMurray' videos that are doing the rounds on YouFaceTwit, you can see that it is literally raining embers, as the people are driving along. Terrifying - how people managed to keep their cool while driving through that is amazing.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by crazyaviator »

Ft, Mac could provide a perimeter of Select trees, thinned for a km with all ground, Call it a perimeter part), brush removed and grassed. beyond that another 1km perimeter of green fields,( call it grazing fields),,,,, A great make work project for inmates and welfare recipients !!! DREAM ON !!
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digits_
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by digits_ »

Another thing that seems curious: why are there 4 waterbombers sitting in Gimli airport at this time ? Wouldn't it make sense to send them up there ?
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by Rockie »

crazyaviator wrote:Ft, Mac could provide a perimeter of Select trees, thinned for a km with all ground, Call it a perimeter part), brush removed and grassed. beyond that another 1km perimeter of green fields,( call it grazing fields),,,,, A great make work project for inmates and welfare recipients !!! DREAM ON !!
Does the city own the 2 km wide swath of land all around it to be able to make those changes? Does any city or town? How much will it cost for each community to do that? How effective will it be using this fire as a yard stick? Will people even support the change to the landscape, cost of the work and likely much higher cost of expropriating land to accomplish such a task?

I believe this kind of measure was recommended after Slave Lake, but at some point practical considerations to build huge pre-emptive fire breaks have to be weighed against existing fire detection and suppression capabilities, and a Ft. Mac type of event happening.
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mbav8r
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by mbav8r »

digits_ wrote:Another thing that seems curious: why are there 4 waterbombers sitting in Gimli airport at this time ? Wouldn't it make sense to send them up there ?
Manitoba is currently under a burn ban and has a couple significant fires burning right now, including evacuations of some communities. We have not had much precipitation to speak of and it wouldn't be prudent to send our quick response two provinces away, that's my guess.
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by iflyforpie »

Rockie wrote:
crazyaviator wrote:Ft, Mac could provide a perimeter of Select trees, thinned for a km with all ground, Call it a perimeter part), brush removed and grassed. beyond that another 1km perimeter of green fields,( call it grazing fields),,,,, A great make work project for inmates and welfare recipients !!! DREAM ON !!
Does the city own the 2 km wide swath of land all around it to be able to make those changes? Does any city or town? How much will it cost for each community to do that? How effective will it be using this fire as a yard stick? Will people even support the change to the landscape, cost of the work and likely much higher cost of expropriating land to accomplish such a task?

I believe this kind of measure was recommended after Slave Lake, but at some point practical considerations to build huge pre-emptive fire breaks have to be weighed against existing fire detection and suppression capabilities, and a Ft. Mac type of event happening.
No.. but the Province does since the lions's share of it is Crown Land, and since it is responsible for fire protection it should easily be able to allow the thinning of fuels around every interface in the province. The few private parcels shouldn't matter, because most likely they've already been cleared or at least high graded anyways.

How much will it cost? Almost nothing. Put tenders out for the timber companies to do the work; they'll get the value in timber. Perhaps a bit of lost revenue in stumpage fees to encourage them to clear low grade wood... but a drop in the bucket compared to what even an average sized fire season costs--to say nothing about what has happened in Ft Mac.

This was one of the recommendations of the (largely ignored) Firestorm Report after 03 in the Okanagan.

Prevention is always better than suppression.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by goingnowherefast »

digits_ wrote:Another thing that seems curious: why are there 4 waterbombers sitting in Gimli airport at this time ? Wouldn't it make sense to send them up there ?
You can only fit so many airplanes in one chunk of airspace. Fires with active air suppression and co-current evacuation are very very busy.

I wonder if this fire will lead to more prescribed burning in the future? Forest fires are natural and if done in a controlled manner, are perfectly safe.
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Re: Fort McMurray mandatory evac

Post by digits_ »

mbav8r wrote:
digits_ wrote:Another thing that seems curious: why are there 4 waterbombers sitting in Gimli airport at this time ? Wouldn't it make sense to send them up there ?
Manitoba is currently under a burn ban and has a couple significant fires burning right now, including evacuations of some communities. We have not had much precipitation to speak of and it wouldn't be prudent to send our quick response two provinces away, that's my guess.
I see, makes sense !
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