Questions from a foreigner

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aussieflyer
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Questions from a foreigner

Post by aussieflyer »

Hi AVCANDA,

Im looking at coming over to your part of the world this September to do a float plane rating and convert my Australian (land down under) CPL to a TC CPL and have a few questions.

What are the rules regarding logging of flight tests time? in Aus we log as Dual but i know some places Taiwan and Singapore who log it as Command under supervision. The reason i ask is because i want to add on a Multi rating to the CPL without a flight test if i can avoid it. I understand that if i have 50hrs in the last 12 months from the day of application it can just be added on ?? I may fall just short on that part unless i can include a flight test that i just did.

Any help would be much appreciated

AF
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Meatservo
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by Meatservo »

I've always understood that a flight test, if successful, can be logged as PIC. If you bone it though, it can't. I'm also pretty sure you need a flight test in order to get a Multi-engine rating.
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7ECA
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by 7ECA »

The rules have changed Meat, in regard to flight tests. The candidate is no longer PIC, the examiner is. Apparently this was changed when the DOJ got ahold of the CARS, and had a fit about potential liability in the event of an accident. So, you no longer get to log any flight test as PIC.

I went through and got my PPL, Multi, and CPL logged as PIC. The Class 4, not so much...
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co-joe
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by co-joe »

That's an interesting change. Obviously for a 2 crew aircraft the examiner doesn't occupy a seat at the controls so there's no way they can be PIC, even in a single pilot ride, they would sit right seat, but they don't necessarily hold a type rating so how can they be PIC?

If the OP was at 49.9 hours multi without the ride, I'd think that just logging it as PIC on the application and if the question comes up, explain that in Oz that's how it's done I'd think he'd be ok, but who knows with TC...
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PointyEngine
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by PointyEngine »

If you have done a multi-engine ride in the preceding 12 months in Aus, and supply the paperwork to TC, they will recognize, and issue you with a multi-engine rating, the key part is the "or".

An applicant wishing to obtain a Multi-Engine Rating, to be endorsed on the CPL-A, must meet the requirements set out in the CARs (CARs - Part IV, Subpart 1, Division X, Section 421.38, Section (3)). If you have 50 hours Pilot-in-Command on multi-engine aeroplanes or have met the standard of the State that issued the rating, in the preceding 12 months (based upon date of application), then Transport Canada may issue your Canadian Multi-Engine Rating based upon your current Multi-Engine Rating. However, if an applicant is unable to satisfy these requirements, they must demonstrate their skill through the successful completion of a practical flight test.
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PropToFeather
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by PropToFeather »

7ECA, do you have a ref to the actual rules? I've been trying to find those, but I can't for the life of me grok where on the TC site they'd be (and the search is woefully unhelpful)

(Also, last DFE I spoke with was of the opinion that, with the rule change, you basically could log it as PIC if your current license allows it. So, CPL and [if you don't file, and fly as a VFR] your IFR ride could be logged as PIC, provided you and the examiner agreed to it)
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by AuxBatOn »

7ECA wrote:
I went through and got my PPL, Multi, and CPL logged as PIC. The Class 4, not so much...
A bit ridiculous. I get it for a different class of aircraft (or even type for that matter), but if you are qualified in an aircraft, there is no reasons you should not be the PIC even for a ride.
co-joe wrote:Obviously for a 2 crew aircraft the examiner doesn't occupy a seat at the controls so there's no way they can be PIC, even in a single pilot ride, they would sit right seat, but they don't necessarily hold a type rating so how can they be PIC?
Well, given that a 777 Captain can go take a 3 hour nap in the back and still be the PIC, I would argue you do not need to be at the controls to be the PIC. Command and flying are 2 different things.
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7ECA
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by 7ECA »

Apparently the change is somewhere in the Pilot Examiner manual. And of course as per the norm when it comes to TC related changes things are hidden somewhere deep in the bowels of the CARs - and if you ask say an inspector they will have a different opinion of the regulation/changes, etc.

When I did my Class 4 ride, we (myself and my Class 1) became aware of a rumour of this change on the morning of the flight test. We tried to find any information on TC's site, to no avail. So, I ended up asking the examiner, and the change was explained. The DOJ decided to stick its nose into TC's business because they now "hold" the CARs. The DOJ said that an examiner should be the PIC during a flight test in the event an emergency happens, because of the potential for liability, because apparently it needs to be more clear cut as to whom is "in charge". So, clearly the schpiel about we will work together in the event of an emergency, during the flight test briefing is now bull shit.
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by Cessna 180 »

You can be PIC on a CPL flight test, assuming you hold a PPL (you have authority to be the Pilot in Command). You can't if you're in an integrated program where you're not required to hold a PPL prior to the whole CPL/MIFR sign off.
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7ECA
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by 7ECA »

Just because you can, does not mean that your examiner will allow you to be. Based on the TC Inspector's information that I was given, most examiners will not allow a candidate to be PIC because of the implied liability. The DOJ has quite the reach...
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cncpc
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by cncpc »

Years ago I worked for the Plaintiff's lawyers in Dublin on a crash of a 340 at Knock airport up in Mayo. It happened during an IFR flight test with an Irish Aviation Authority examiner on board.

It involved this very issue of who is PIC for a flight test.

The examinee is a lawyer who owns a 340. He's had a multi rating and previously owned a Seneca, and that got pranged somehow. At this point, he wants an IFR rating.

The IAA guy is at Knock and buddy flies up from Weston, just west of Dublin, to meet him with his safety pilot. He flies left seat but always with a safety pilot.

They do the prelims and the examiner goes somewhere and files an IFR flight plan. The IAA has a policy that its examiners are not the pilot in command, as they have on type currency over there, at least for multi. So the guy isn't current on a 340, or probably anything cause the IAA has no planes of its own. As discussed above, its all about liability for them.

Up they go, the safety pilot in the terminal, and they do some airwork. The "hood" is an old map taped on the pilot's half of the windshield. Completely blocked. Come back for the first approach at Knock. By the outer marker, the examinee senses some movement to his right. Very shortly thereafter, one quits. He starts his drill. A few seconds later, the other one quits. There is mass panic. He's tearing the map off the windscreen and the examiner is frantically moving those fuel selectors around in an airplane he has never been in before. They stall high and hit hard but level in a field, bust off the right gear leg and slew into one of the stone fences that are everywhere out there.

The examinee has a broken back, but gets out on his own steam. The examiner comes out from under the shoulder strap and impacts the throttle pedestal and among other things severs his optical nerve by trauma. He survives, but is blind for life.

The examinee sues the examiner and the IAA. He says that the flight test was conducted in an unsafe manner and that the examiner was the PIC and not current on the airplane, and set up the engine failure drill by switching fuel selectors, rather than throttle back, and not knowing the system, caused both engines to quit. The IAA says the lawyer is the PIC. I do the investigation right after the accident and file my report and about 5 years go by and I'm called to testify in Dublin.

Our side's position is that a flight test is for the purposes of determining if a pilot is qualified to do the manouevers that are the subject of the test. Whether that is true or not is what the test is about. One outcome is that he isn't. In a test which involves real (as this was) or simulated IFR and engine failures and potential for loss of control, finding out in the test that the quy wasn't qualified means you are toast if he's the pilot in command. We said that it makes no sense that the IAA examiner isn't the PIC as he is the only qualified pilot on board. And, he was the one who filed a flight plan for actual IFR. He couldn't do that unless he was the PIC.

Show up in the Four Courts, barristers everywhere with some dead lamb on their heads, and besides me, we have another expert from north London, some old Spitfire pilot with a lot of instructing time. They go into court, the judge sits down, one guy, the State lawyer says he thinks he and his friend, our guy, have reached an agreement and they won't be troubling the court again. And they did.

So the wife and I get our gear out of the hotel, and jump on the train for Galway, spend a couple of days in Jury's there, back to Dublin,over to Amsterdam and home to the Slocan Valley. Never said a word.

This case had considerable repercussions and from what I understand even over here. When I came back, I asked and I think I was told the student was the PIC here too. I'm glad to hear that nonsense has ended. I hope there was a good settlement for life for Joe, the examiner.
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aussieflyer
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by aussieflyer »

PointyEngine wrote:If you have done a multi-engine ride in the preceding 12 months in Aus, and supply the paperwork to TC, they will recognize, and issue you with a multi-engine rating, the key part is the "or".

An applicant wishing to obtain a Multi-Engine Rating, to be endorsed on the CPL-A, must meet the requirements set out in the CARs (CARs - Part IV, Subpart 1, Division X, Section 421.38, Section (3)). If you have 50 hours Pilot-in-Command on multi-engine aeroplanes or have met the standard of the State that issued the rating, in the preceding 12 months (based upon date of application), then Transport Canada may issue your Canadian Multi-Engine Rating based upon your current Multi-Engine Rating. However, if an applicant is unable to satisfy these requirements, they must demonstrate their skill through the successful completion of a practical flight test.
would a Multi IFR test count as "have met the standard of the State". In Aus we do both Multi class endorsement (basically allows you to fly VFR in a multi, then we have to do a multi IFR if we want to operate under IFR in a multi). The multi IFR includes a assy component but no stalls, RTO, in-flight shutdown etc like the multi endorsement does?
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digits_
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by digits_ »

aussieflyer wrote:
PointyEngine wrote:If you have done a multi-engine ride in the preceding 12 months in Aus, and supply the paperwork to TC, they will recognize, and issue you with a multi-engine rating, the key part is the "or".

An applicant wishing to obtain a Multi-Engine Rating, to be endorsed on the CPL-A, must meet the requirements set out in the CARs (CARs - Part IV, Subpart 1, Division X, Section 421.38, Section (3)). If you have 50 hours Pilot-in-Command on multi-engine aeroplanes or have met the standard of the State that issued the rating, in the preceding 12 months (based upon date of application), then Transport Canada may issue your Canadian Multi-Engine Rating based upon your current Multi-Engine Rating. However, if an applicant is unable to satisfy these requirements, they must demonstrate their skill through the successful completion of a practical flight test.
would a Multi IFR test count as "have met the standard of the State". In Aus we do both Multi class endorsement (basically allows you to fly VFR in a multi, then we have to do a multi IFR if we want to operate under IFR in a multi). The multi IFR includes a assy component but no stalls, RTO, in-flight shutdown etc like the multi endorsement does?
When I converted my European licenses, they wanted to make sure that my multi IFR flight test also included all exercises for the multi flight test. I believe my European examiner actually filled out 2 exam sheets to prove this. So in practice it is probably acceptable, but make sure there is a paper trail. I don't remember the details exactly, but it is not just automatically the same/approved.
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Choppermech1986
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by Choppermech1986 »

Thanks so much for sharing that story cncpc, it certainly makes you think about how flight tests are conducted!

Once again, thanks for taking the time to share the story.
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by Cessna 180 »

7ECA wrote:Just because you can, does not mean that your examiner will allow you to be. Based on the TC Inspector's information that I was given, most examiners will not allow a candidate to be PIC because of the implied liability. The DOJ has quite the reach...
Can't speak for all examiners, but all the ones I know of in the Kitchener area let the candidate be PIC if qualified during a CPL. I was when I did mine, I was not when I did my multi ride. Makes sense why the examiner should be PIC however. Especially when doing procedures under the hood while flying VFR.
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by PointyEngine »

digits_ wrote:
aussieflyer wrote:
PointyEngine wrote:If you have done a multi-engine ride in the preceding 12 months in Aus, and supply the paperwork to TC, they will recognize, and issue you with a multi-engine rating, the key part is the "or".

An applicant wishing to obtain a Multi-Engine Rating, to be endorsed on the CPL-A, must meet the requirements set out in the CARs (CARs - Part IV, Subpart 1, Division X, Section 421.38, Section (3)). If you have 50 hours Pilot-in-Command on multi-engine aeroplanes or have met the standard of the State that issued the rating, in the preceding 12 months (based upon date of application), then Transport Canada may issue your Canadian Multi-Engine Rating based upon your current Multi-Engine Rating. However, if an applicant is unable to satisfy these requirements, they must demonstrate their skill through the successful completion of a practical flight test.
would a Multi IFR test count as "have met the standard of the State". In Aus we do both Multi class endorsement (basically allows you to fly VFR in a multi, then we have to do a multi IFR if we want to operate under IFR in a multi). The multi IFR includes a assy component but no stalls, RTO, in-flight shutdown etc like the multi endorsement does?
When I converted my European licenses, they wanted to make sure that my multi IFR flight test also included all exercises for the multi flight test. I believe my European examiner actually filled out 2 exam sheets to prove this. So in practice it is probably acceptable, but make sure there is a paper trail. I don't remember the details exactly, but it is not just automatically the same/approved.

I did a conversion from a NZ MEIR (Similar scam to Aussie) and included my flight test report from the IFR portion of the ride, and that sufficed. Obviously needed a IFR check ride down the road though.
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praveen4143
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by praveen4143 »

They've changed the PIC rule once more late winter/early fall when the new flight test guides came out. Even on the CPL test or the multi test, the examiner is PIC.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 87.htm#s16
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... c401833992

I believe the CARs have also been updated accordingly but I'm too groggy from waking up to be able to look it up :P
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aussieflyer
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by aussieflyer »

thanks for all the help guys! I might still chase up TC and see what they say. anyone know who i should call/email?
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Re: Questions from a foreigner

Post by PropToFeather »

aussieflyer wrote:Anyone know who i should call/email?
Transport Canada Contact Page. I imagine a call to the Civil Aviation number would work. If you cannot make it past the switchboard for "which regional office do you want", you'll probably want either the British Columbia one (since they might know more on that side of the world), or Ontario. HQ, if you can figure it out, would be ideal. Ask something along the lines of "I have a question about converting an AUS CPL to CAN CPL, is this the right place", and they should be able to get you to the right person.

Note: The TC offices work "bank hours" in local time (8am-4pm, usually), so you might need to figure out what that is to you locally.
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