Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

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Turbine dog
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Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by Turbine dog » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:04 am

Hello Av Canada,

I have had many days where I have flown over 10-15 legs.

Right now I am just making one entry for the entire day, and putting the routing in the comments section. I leave route of flight blank because there is not enough room for anything there.

I was just wondering what others do. Is there a proper way of logging multiple legs like this? Will transport accept a logbook for an application that is completed this way?
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photofly
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by photofly » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:22 am

I don't fly 12 legs a day but sometime three or four and I do just what you do. It sounds very sensible and certainly meets the regulation on keeping a personal log.
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timel
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by timel » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:50 am

I know few pilots (including me) that had to rewrite those logbook entries because we had like 7 legs into one entry and TC refused to issue the ATPL. Until you get your airline, I wouldn't try any shortcut, just in case.


Personal Logs

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and

(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder’s name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;
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Last edited by timel on Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

photofly
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by photofly » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:15 am

He's already recording the routing so he has the departure and arrival information for each leg. 401.08(1) says to record the flight time of each flight, so I guess that's what you have to do. Include the segment time breakdown alongside the route information and you meet the requirement.
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timel
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by timel » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:36 am

Yes, that could work. :mrgreen:

I feel your pain, writting down 15 legs at the end of each day. Some bring their logbook in the flight bag and do it as they go. Myself I leave it at home.
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by NAT2 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:38 am

I was doing 12+ legs per day, did a daily log, and had no issues. What would they recommend a jump pilot do? That's just silly.
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timel
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by timel » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:42 am

The main issue is the cross country hours, they want it clearly identified. When you fly for an air-taxi or a commuter you are obviously not going from A to A, ya know...
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by SuperchargedRS » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:46 am

As long as you communicate what you did in the air into your log, it's all good.

Most I do nowadays is 3-4, if it's airport to airport with a shutdown, I'll make a new line in my electronic log, otherwise I'll just put it on one line.

Ether or
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by Rowdy » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:49 am

Having submitted my books a year ago for the A (I know I know, I was slacking) I can tell you that making a single daily entry was accepted, and by far the easiest for me. When flying floats, I had days where there were 15 'legs'... that would wear out books and pens mighty quick!
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by ant_321 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:53 am

You do more than I did. For the route I just put where I left from and where I ended up at the end of the day. I worked for a scheduled service with only a few different pairings so I just listed the name of the pairing in the comments. Didn't have an issue and as far as I know that's how everyone at my old company did it. I now fly a max of 3 legs a day, most days only 1 or 2 so I do a line for every flight.
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by lazyeight » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:22 am

I do exactly what you do. Base to base, with each enroute airport in the comments section. Pretty much everyone I know who flies a lot of legs does it this way. Hell, I know airline pilots who put one monthly entry into their books...
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by Changes in Latitudes » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:31 am

lazyeight wrote:I do exactly what you do. Base to base, with each enroute airport in the comments section. Pretty much everyone I know who flies a lot of legs does it this way. Hell, I know airline pilots who put one monthly entry into their books...
Exactly, and post ATPL sign-off, no one is going to care.
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:54 am

timel wrote:I know few pilots (including me) that had to rewrite those logbook entries because we had like 7 legs into one entry and TC refused to issue the ATPL. Until you get your airline, I wouldn't try any shortcut, just in case.


Personal Logs

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and

(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder’s name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;
Para (f) would IMO allow you to make one entry per day. The "flight" is your whole day so it would start with the airport (or place) that you took off from the first time and ends with the airport you landed at at the end of the day with the flight time being the cumulative total. Eg 1 Apr 20XX, Pa 31, GXXX, self, CYVR-CYLW-CYXX-CYVR-CYBL-CYXS, 7.8 hrs day VFR

In any case that is the way I have done it for the last 29 years and nobody has complained.
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by ThatArmyGuy » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:38 pm

I wrote down the 6-8 legs a day i.e. YEG-YLL-YMM-YEG-xxx etc etc with one line, total hours, number of T/O and landings and approaches, etc and submitted that for my ATPL application and was approved rather expeditiously... maybe another classic case of Region vs Region?
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by valleyboy » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:47 pm

I don't understand why it's a regulation to maintain a personal log. Currency, training etc is a company issue if you are doing it for a living. I have never been asked to produce a personal log (except when I was upgrading licenses) and after that was done back around 1974 -- my bad :smt040
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by FighterPilot » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:30 pm

I too do a daily log entry. In the comments section I write out the legs as: CYYZ-CYAM/CYAM-CYQT/CYQT-CYYZ etc. I do it this way so it shows that they are all separate legs and not one big x-country with say CYAM and CYQT at fly over way points. I applied for my A's last year as well and got my log book back within 3 weeks no questions asked. I have heard in the past some have been questioned when they put their legs as: CYYZ-CYAM-CYQT-CYYZ. But take it with a grain of salt, it could all depend on the person who is looking at your book.
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by Cessna driver » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:43 pm

daily for me, sent in for the AAs in november, received the sticker first week of january, no calls or questions from TC
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by SuperchargedRS » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:20 pm

valleyboy wrote:I don't understand why it's a regulation to maintain a personal log. Currency, training etc is a company issue if you are doing it for a living. I have never been asked to produce a personal log (except when I was upgrading licenses) and after that was done back around 1974 -- my bad :smt040

Wow, you got some major faith in people you don't even know.

What if the company takes a dump and looses your records somehow? Some POed IT guys goes all format crazy on hard drives, who knows?

As pilots much of our worth is based on our logs, regardless of the law or government or corporation, I keep my personal log up to date, frankly I don't trust ANYONE that far.
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by valleyboy » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:27 pm

But what do you use your log book for? I have had several jobs but after I was about 25 I was never asked for or produced a log book to get hired and all jobs were direct entry captain on 705 aircraft. It indicates to me that at some point logging time is mute.
What if the company takes a dump and looses your records somehow? Some POed IT guys goes all format crazy on hard drives, who knows?

As pilots much of our worth is based on our logs,


My answer to that is if that happens how can you prove the time in your log book. To find copies of old aircraft logs would be an impossible job.
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:48 pm

I had the same long days as you, 12-15 leggers.

Single entry per day, as long as AC reg didn't change, with stopovers in the comments sections and start and end points in the TO and FROM. No issues with TC and my AAs when I submitted my books.

Enjoy those crazy days, as hard as they feel now. Have fun and fly safe.

S.
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by lazyeight » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:03 pm

If were talking A's, yeah TC will accept the secondary stops in the comments section.

Mine is like the following CYYZ-CYYZ under the main to/from columns. Then under comments would be "YQT, YWG, YQT". Total logged, total XC, IMC.
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by timel » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:38 pm

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;



Para (f) would IMO allow you to make one entry per day. The "flight" is your whole day so it would start with the airport (or place) that you took off from the first time and ends with the airport you landed at at the end of the day with the flight time being the cumulative total. Eg 1 Apr 20XX, Pa 31, GXXX, self, CYVR-CYLW-CYXX-CYVR-CYBL-CYXS, 7.8 hrs day VFR

In any case that is the way I have done it for the last 29 years and nobody has complained.

I should have made a thread on this issue 2 years ago. It really pisses me off to read all those posts. It isn't fun to rewrite a 1000 hours after some hysteric person went crazy on you and your logbooks.

[quote="ThatArmyGuy"
maybe another classic case of Region vs Region?
Yes, different places, different people, some want to help and other be a pain in the arse. I know some people who submit their paper work in orther provinces in order to get a better service.
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Re: Proper way to log 12 legs a day in a personal logbook?

Post by PointyEngine » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:27 pm

Turbine dog wrote:Hello Av Canada,

I have had many days where I have flown over 10-15 legs.

Right now I am just making one entry for the entire day, and putting the routing in the comments section. I leave route of flight blank because there is not enough room for anything there.

I was just wondering what others do. Is there a proper way of logging multiple legs like this? Will transport accept a logbook for an application that is completed this way?
What you're doing is completely fine - I had a similar question years ago. In the bush we'd fly in excess of 10 legs daily for seasons at a time. When I submitted it to TC for ATPL issue they had no problems with it at all. Airline interviews also never questioned it.
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