Sunwing is starting a cadet program

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timel
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Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by timel »

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 3&start=25

I am making a new thread on the subject.
Anyone has more information on Sunwing's cadet program and SENECA college?

I posted a picture from Instagram old of 9 weeks https://www.instagram.com/p/BEESertJq-_/
they have done a good job to keep it under the radar.
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tailgunner
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by tailgunner »

Is it based in Canada or the Czech Republic?
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gonnabeapilot
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by gonnabeapilot »

Don't know all the details but from my understanding this will involve 2 candidates being offered direct entry F/O on the 737. It's a trial program to see how it goes and if successful it will be expanded to include 4 different college programs with 1 or 2 candidates being selected from each college. It will not replace the standard hiring process so 99% of new hires will still be higher time pilots and the college candidates selected will be given a normal First Officer status with the airline with all the pay, benefits etc... that comes with it. The program is being modeled after the one Jazz has been using for the last few years.
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timel
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by timel »

Is it a typical cadet program that comes with a self sponsored 737 type rating?

I am surprised Sunwing has interest in testing those kind of programs, even though there are plenty of pilots with a diversified experiences on the market.
It always starts with a small %, my bet is SW isn't doing it for the fun of it.

I am wondering what is in the new TA for this low time candidates.
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BuckNasty
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by BuckNasty »

Would they really do a self sponsored type rating in Canada?
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gonnabeapilot
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by gonnabeapilot »

Nope, as I said, this program is modeled after the one Jazz has been running for the last few years. The selected candidates are given normal First Officer positions. To be clear that means that Sunwing covers the cost of their type rating as they would any other new hire First Officer and the cadet will receive the same starting wage and progress through the pay scale the same way as any other candidate hired off the street.

There's nothing sneaky or underhanded happening here. I doubt this program will ever be anything more than a small part of the Sunwing hiring as the costs associated with it are higher than hiring someone off the street (more sim time and more Line indoc required as well as pairing restrictions that will prevent the candidates from flying with new Captains) and with a current average time to upgrade of 2ish years there's no way Sunwing can make low time cadets the majority of its hiring without ending up having to park airplanes in a few years because of a lack of Captains.
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Changes in Latitudes
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by Changes in Latitudes »

What is the plan for the kiddies to obtain their ATPL coming in with min time and an IATRA? Does 3000 hours of Boeing time, with 200 hours of piston college time make for a captain who makes good command decisions? Or is AS304 "Making Good Command Decisions" now covered in college?

Sounds like having birthday cake for breakfast; fun now, pay later.
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Sierra Nevada
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by Sierra Nevada »

This is getting a little ridiculous - we should really be implementing an ATPL at minimum to operate 705 aircraft.
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by Canoehead »

Starting to become a reality for some now at Jazz as the upgrades are occurring rapidly. Some CPL FO's are having to watch those junior to them with ATPL's get their upgrades while they are booking Cessna's on days off to build time. I'm not judging anyone, but in my mind it makes more sense to be getting paid to get your ATPL rather than paying to get it.

Will Sunwing do a sim eval on these college candidates?
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by CpnCrunch »

Welcome to Europe :)
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tailgunner
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by tailgunner »

Don't worry about these cadet pilots being able to upgrade. Sunwing will just outsource Captains from,Europe to fill their cockpits. In fact, if this program is wildly successful, Sunwing could make a legitimate argument for more European captains, because they would not be able to crew their aircraft with their existing FO's..
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ahramin
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by ahramin »

It's strange, European pilots manage to fly jets with 200 hours. They manage to run entire airlines bigger than Air Canada only hiring people off the street. I wonder why Canadian pilots need so much more experience before being capable of flying these difficult aircraft?

Come to think of it though, Canadians do manage to fly large cargo and fast fighter jets without thousands of hours in the RCAF so maybe it isn't the pilots after all. Perhaps it's just that without thousands of hours in the bush, you can't expect a pilot to understand how to safely break minimums or gross weight limitations?
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SAR_YQQ
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by SAR_YQQ »

You don't need an ATPL to be right seat on a Boeing. Can you put the gear up when commanded - check! Can you talk with ATC and punch in a waypoint on the FMS - check!

Come on guys - flying into an airport that can handle a jet = easiest flying out there. The easiest job I've done is when I was flying a heavy Boeing all over the world.
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by tbaylx »

Sierra Nevada wrote:This is getting a little ridiculous - we should really be implementing an ATPL at minimum to operate 705 aircraft.
Sunwing has several current pilots that do not have ATPL's.
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timel
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by timel »

ahramin wrote:It's strange, European pilots manage to fly jets with 200 hours. They manage to run entire airlines bigger than Air Canada only hiring people off the street. I wonder why Canadian pilots need so much more experience before being capable of flying these difficult aircraft?

Come to think of it though, Canadians do manage to fly large cargo and fast fighter jets without thousands of hours in the RCAF so maybe it isn't the pilots after all. Perhaps it's just that without thousands of hours in the bush, you can't expect a pilot to understand how to safely break minimums or gross weight limitations?
If airlines were investing the same amount of time and money that the military have to train their pilots, we wouldn't be having this discussion, not all airlines in Europe do hire pilots without hours and jet experience.

Now, if you are an airline, you fly airplanes with +100 PAX and you can choose between low timers or guys with operational flying, real hours in the clouds with approaches at minimums, it seems logic to me they will go for the second option. In Canada there are plenty of second options and like someone said, those candidates are cheaper to train, so what's the point of having a cadet program?
If 703 and 704 vanish one day, maybe the only way for airlines to have pilots will be cadets programs, it won't happen tomorow.
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by North Shore »

Perhaps cadets are 'cheaper': they'll work for less, and won't complain because they have few other options.
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timel
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by timel »

North Shore wrote:Perhaps cadets are 'cheaper': they'll work for less, and won't complain because they have few other options.
I have done a little more research on the European cadet programs so that people can understand what we are talking about.

It appears that the typical CPL - MULTI IFR - basic MCC/JOC, pilot training system isn't working correctly.
I'm quoting this below from a document made by Ryanair on how to have higher quality FOs.
Future EU Pilot Career Path
1. MPL > High F/O Standards > Airline Career > Increased Safety
2. CPL ME/IR > APC > High F/O Standards > Airline Career > Increased Safety
3. CPL ME/IR > Basic MCC/JOC > Lower F/O Standards
So 1, you can go through the MPL training if you are able to afford 155,000USD$. (MPL pricing - Air Arabia as an example here: http://goo.gl/YiTXe2)
Note that the MPL is a restricted license attached to an airline that isn't obligated to hire you at the end. The pilot doesn't have the privilege of a PPL/CPL/IF and he can't switch airline. :mrgreen:

Or, you can still do your multi-ifr, if you thought paying for a type rating and line training in Europe was crap, they are now adding the Airline Pilot Course, (APC) (see number 2.), if I look at Ryanair APCC, I estimate it is at least an extra 15000-20000 euros that candidates have to pay to qualify as FOs.

So yes, cadet schemes are profitable for airlines and the training industry.
I'm wondering what will be the cost given by SENECA and what is SW long term agenda.
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by Bede »

SAR YQQ,
I don't think you understand how an airline crew operates.
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ahramin
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by ahramin »

Or he was being sarcastic, I can't figure out which.
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wan2fly99
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Re: Sunwing is starting a cadet program

Post by wan2fly99 »

Should send them a resume. If they hire young guys as FO and no experience, wonder if they will give an old guy a chance. No need for me to upgrade to captain, might be dead by then
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