New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

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GRK2
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by GRK2 »

Bobcaygeon,

What does salary have to do with this subject? Unless you've been hiding in a cave, you would know how much a condo or house costs in the GTA and YVR areas. So in order to have decent standard of living, most pilots have no choice but to live where they can afford to live. That usually means an hour or more drive, or a commute from another city where housing is more affordable, and the kids can live in a safe neighborhood, and their partner is working etc etc etc. It would seem your need to point out that the salary level has anything to do with duty days makes me think you're a little envious. Have a think about how and why the airlines and the Feds require you by law to be rested before a duty period. Then try to understand about how these people manage their personal lives and their responsibility to be properly rested before a duty day. Not that easy a thing to do. How much money they make is inconsequential to the subject.
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bobcaygeon
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by bobcaygeon »

GRK2 wrote:Bobcaygeon,

What does salary have to do with this subject? Unless you've been hiding in a cave, you would know how much a condo or house costs in the GTA and YVR areas. So in order to have decent standard of living, most pilots have no choice but to live where they can afford to live. That usually means an hour or more drive, or a commute from another city where housing is more affordable, and the kids can live in a safe neighborhood, and their partner is working etc etc etc. It would seem your need to point out that the salary level has anything to do with duty days makes me think you're a little envious. Have a think about how and why the airlines and the Feds require you by law to be rested before a duty period. Then try to understand about how these people manage their personal lives and their responsibility to be properly rested before a duty day. Not that easy a thing to do. How much money they make is inconsequential to the subject.
Envious, yes that's it. I'm busted. I only mentioned salary because YYZ and YVR are expensive and does directly affect commute times. Lower wages increase commute times but the increased wages generally do not decrease the commute times.The stats show that the mean/median/mode income of residents within 30 min of YYZ/YVR are well below that of the average AC driver. Pools and putting greens in Barrie or KW are urban sprawl luxuries. If the loudest and most vocal groups (ACPA and ALPA) can't "afford" to live near YYZ/YVR how would the lower paid groups with less negotiating power for financial and rest periods at home base be more capable to meet the proper rest requirements that these groups feel they require?

Really Duty day vs awake day, nice try. The "science" used to back up the new regulations is based on human sleep rhythms, fatigue levels, hours of sleep, time when you are "awake" not just on duty plus many other factors.

If riding in the back of the plane commuting is more relaxing then why is it duty day when the company schedules it?? If anything it's more relaxing because it's confirmed and more likely to be J class vs middle seat?

Yet again, where does the employer's responsibility end?

There are definitely great upcoming changes to the regulations that are long overdue but "One size fits all" doesn't work especially in government.
They know how to make regulations target specific areas. Have you ever looked at the Income Tax act?
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Forgive me for the craziness, as I know some pilots are abused and their QOL sucks, but I always enjoyed the flexibility of a 14hr duty day. Never worked for anyone who abused it, and when I was at the time building stage, it was great to maximize every day.

Work your butt off for a few years, to end up in a comfy position somewhere else. The operators and dispatchers I flew for always asked if we were ok to continue up to 14. Every now and then you get the odd 17 extension.

Today I still like the flexibility of a 14hr day, because it gives me the opportunity to get to where my passengers are going and home again, rather than having to overnight. Considering I only fly a couple times a month, I'm ok with a 14hr day if they are required for me to get home to my family.

I think rather than a hard restriction, if it was an increased emphasis on fatigue management and proper scheduling techniques, that would work out better than having TC step in, but there I go again.

I know this is going to mess up a lot of seasonal float and helicopter pilots unfortunately.

S.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by AuxBatOn »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: I'm ok with a 14hr day if they are required for me to get home to my family.

This is exactly why we need more oversight on this matter: to prevent external pressure, like getting home, from getting in the way of safety related to fatigue... You may be okay to fly that last leg. The next guy may be too tired but heck, this next leg brings me home...
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Fair enough, but in my humble opinion, everyone's stamina is different. I've seen guys who were worn out and complaining after 8 hour days, and other girls that were ready to peg on another segment after 14.

A 14 hour day with 2 segments is a pretty easy day. We do a lot of Caribbean flying and it may be 6 hours down on autopilot and 6 hours back. With a small stop for fuel, reload and head home, we squeeze just under the 14hr whistle. I do that perhaps 3 times a month in the fall when that type of flying picks up. If I'm not up for it, my company finds me a hotel down south for the night. Call me lucky I guess that I have managers that know how to take care of their crew, and leave some of those decisions to the ones they affect.

I understand the dangers of opening the 'they did it, so why can't you door', but at the end of the day, that's the company not understanding fatigue, dispatchers and managers squeezing a nickel out of a penny, and the pilot agreeing to more than they could offer.

I can see at the airlines (both pax and cargo), where there is more variability and over usage (basically anywhere that is unionized), that this blanket duty day can be useful to help prevent pilots falling prey to the 'he did, you do' shenanigans and pressure. But I am one of the few, I guess, where I feel comfortable not needing to rely on TC to govern my work day, anymore than they already do.

S.
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tailgunner
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by tailgunner »

Bobcaygeon,
ACPA has secured a 12 hour home base minimum between pairings.
So to put it politely, you do not know your a$$ from your elbow.
Cheers.
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bobcaygeon
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by bobcaygeon »

tailgunner wrote:Bobcaygeon,
ACPA has secured a 12 hour home base minimum between pairings.
So to put it politely, you do not know your a$$ from your elbow.
Cheers.
Thanks Captain Obvious
Your entire contract is available for public viewing on the internet legitimately via government website. I also have rectal scar tissue from the Robert Milton era. It's been 12 hrs for many, many agreements so why the lobby now to shovel the rest of the "science" down my throat with the "one size fits all" legislation. It appears as "please legislate what I couldn't negotiate" though I would hope the standard is higher than that.

I like my days off and can chose to live 20 minutes from work, my boat and drive my snow machine out of my garage but now someone says I can't fly 3 legs (2.5 hrs stick time), nap for 6 hrs, and fly 3 legs home. It's high credit so I work 13-14 days a month. It sure the hell isn't a YYZ-LGA turn but on paper it's more fatiguing.

One size fits all doesn't work.
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Rockie
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by Rockie »

Unfortunately as a member of ICAO they cannot craft regulations according to individual preferences or the unique capabilities of super-humans. They have to use science.

Although I will state unequivocally that they do craft F&DT regulations according to the commercial preferences of operators over anything else. We all know that.
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Last edited by Rockie on Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tailgunner
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by tailgunner »

Bobcaygeon,
You were the one who raised the issue of pilots (ACPA and ALPA) driving 1 hour to and from work. I just pointed out that what you deem as odd, is in fact legal. If you are having problems with the math, I will do it for you. 1 hour drive + 2 hours of personal time + 8 hours prone rest + 1 hour return to the airport , meets the CARS legal requirement.
We, (ACPA) do not need to beg for changes because we have used our efforts to secure proper legal rest. We are lobbying for changes do duty day lengths using a science based approach, plus augmentation updates.
You can probably continue to operate whatever you are flying as you always have...., hopefully without passengers.......
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ant_321
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by ant_321 »

When I was doing 14 hr days that included 8 legs and 9.5 hours of hand flying approaches to minimums I was really hoping for changes in the regs. Now that I do 2 legs a day the 14 hrs doesn't seem so bad. Although I recognize the arguments for change and believe the science, I am really not looking forward to the changes. They will greatly decrease my quality of life. I will go from being home nearly every night working 12ish days per month to spending many nights away from home and working 16+ days a month.
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by AOW »

co-joe wrote:I'd just like to see an end to the 8 hours uninterrupted happens in camp or at a hotel, and your official duty is when you are home with your spouse for 7 hours bullshit that rules the 703 world. It should read 8 hours uninterrupted rest at your own home plus time to get there and back. I knew so many pilots that lived an hour from the airport and yet somehow were able to meet CARs rest in 8.5 hours between landing and tomorrow's departure often including time to do the day's paperwork.
CARs wrote:"minimum rest period" - means a period during which a flight crew member is free from all duties, is not interrupted by the air operator or private operator, and is provided with an opportunity to obtain not less than eight consecutive hours of sleep in suitable accommodation, time to travel to and from that accommodation and time for personal hygiene and meals; (période de repos minimale)
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bobcaygeon
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by bobcaygeon »

tailgunner wrote:Bobcaygeon,
You were the one who raised the issue of pilots (ACPA and ALPA) driving 1 hour to and from work. I just pointed out that what you deem as odd, is in fact legal. If you are having problems with the math, I will do it for you. 1 hour drive + 2 hours of personal time + 8 hours prone rest + 1 hour return to the airport , meets the CARS legal requirement.
We, (ACPA) do not need to beg for changes because we have used our efforts to secure proper legal rest. We are lobbying for changes do duty day lengths using a science based approach, plus augmentation updates.
You can probably continue to operate whatever you are flying as you always have...., hopefully without passengers.......
Even with 12 hours contractual rest between check out to check in, Terminal 4 (Barrie) is a pretty tight stretch to pull off 8 hrs prone with the time for the 3's plus commute and the staff parking lot adventure to/from your vehicle. So are they really actually making use of the 12 hrs contractually and soon to be regulated rest to bring your A game to work?
Claiming fatigue 10-12 hrs later seems like a stretch for those who chose to live this lifestyle.

Is it any different than the flight crew member who claims fatigue at work but is streaming video on the company computer in company housing at 2 am. Really??

Again where does the employer's responsibility end??

When was the last time a pilot was convicted of operating an aircraft "unfit for duty" due to fatigue? Does that mean that it doesn't happen either from employer pressure or by poor lifestyle decision making? Not likely.
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Trematode
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by Trematode »

I see a few comments from folks who fly a few times a month and don't mind the 14 hour days. I don't think anyone would really have a problem with that.

It's the smaller 703 and 704 operators who have to squeeze every waking moment out of a pilot to make their businesses turn a profit. Competition is fierce and margins are slim, and if your competitor is running their pilot pool right down to the bone, how else can you compete, but to do the same?

I'm hopeful that new regs will go a long way to curb instances of crews getting their min resets, rotating between nights and days, working full 14 hour days with little sleep (or longer, due to commonly used loopholes), and crashing in heaps of sprawled bodies in hotel or FBO lobbies. If every operator has to play by the same science-based rules, the prices might very well go up for customers, but we may get to see some positive change in terms of safety for all and quality of life for the crews. The reserve system as it stands is also a bit of a joke, when they outline acceptable means to provide such a system, but then add a clause at the end of the regulation that can effectively throw all of what was detailed out the window.

Some real change is desperately needed... At least from where I'm sitting in the 703/704 world. My only regret is that Transport is offering up such a long grace period for operators to comply.

Can't really speak to 705 stuff, but it seems the bigger the operation, the more progressive they tend to be as far as duty time policy goes.
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beaverbob
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by beaverbob »

Is every take-off considered a segment?
If so, how many segments are allowed in one day?
In our work on seaplanes on the west coast it is quite possible do complete 10 take offs in the first 6 to 8 hours of the day.
If this is enforced the wrong way we could end up with short enough days to end up with a 5 day work week instead of the now enjoyable 4 day work week. I do not think segments can be considered the same for a seaplane pilot as it is for a runway pilot. I sometimes do 4 take off in my first hour. It won't effect me as I will be retired by 2021.
Bob
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strikestwo
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by strikestwo »

No mention of 702 operations where one can work 100-130 days straight unless of course you count a day on call as a day off after the fact.
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by square »

Any news on this?
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Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

Post by Instructor_Mike »

As a guy in a 703 the kind of frustrating thing for me is that there is no duty time limits in the scope of week or month. I fly 20-24 days a month with most days over 8 hours. However we also spend a fair bit of time on the ground. Sometimes it's just 1 leg up hold a few hours and 1 leg down. We don't have the luxury of pilot lounges in the north. You get MTO issued metal benches a lot of the time. I might only fly 3-4 hours in a day but sitting around for 7-8. Napping in the airplane isn't viable at -30C either. The company I work for will try to help out and will sometimes get us a stay somewhere that at least has couches but this isn't mandatory.

Lately I've been averaging 100-110 hours of duty time in 2 weeks (50-55 hours per week). I recognize this is a separate problem but it's one that I wish would get some attention.
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