New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Message
Author
pilotidentity
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:00 am

New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#1 Post by pilotidentity » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:38 pm

Why was the previous thread locked on this BIG news for Canadian aviation???

http://ca.reuters.com/article/domesticN ... =0&sp=true
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
BuckNasty
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 12:46 am

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#2 Post by BuckNasty » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:40 am

Will this have any impact on employment numbers? More flight crews needed?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Galaxy
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:35 am

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#3 Post by Galaxy » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:07 am

June 22, 2016

Subject: Flight Crew Fatigue Management

Dear CARAC members:

Transport Canada is striving to enhance safety within flight operations by amending the current limitations associated with flight time, flight duty time limitations and rest periods and introducing fatigue risk management systems (FRMS). The following is to provide you with an update on this regulatory initiative.

On September 15, 2014, a Notice of Proposed Amendment (NPA) to the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) was published for consultation. The NPA was followed on August 8,2015 by the publication of a Notice of Intent, in Canada Gazette, Part I, confirming the direction being taken by the department. Stakeholders were informed then that proposed changes to the CARs would be introduced in a two-phase regulatory approach. Phase I would apply only to CARs Subpart 705 operators, while Phase 2 would apply to all other operators (Subparts 604, 702, 703 and 704).

Transport Canada has since had the opportunity to review all the comments received during consultations with stakeholders and is now in a position to confirm the policy direction being taken by the department to develop regulations that will respond to pilots’ and air operators concerns, as well as Canada’s international obligations.

Transport Canada is proceeding with the amendmcnt of the prescriptive limitations and the introduction of fatigue risk management systems (FRMS) for all air transport services in Canada. It has been decided that the proposed amendments to the CARs will be introduced as one amendment for air taxi operators (Subpart 703), commuter operators (Subpari 704) and airline operators (Subpart 705) only. This amendment will not apply to private operators (Subpart 604) or to aerial work operators (Subpart 702).

The proposed implementation period for Subpart 705 air operators will he 12 months from the Canada Gazette, Part II publication date and for Subparts 703 and 704 air operators, 48 months from the canada Gazette, Part II publication date. All stakeholders and members ol the public will have an opportunity to provide further input on the proposed regulations when these are published in Canada Gazette, Part I, which is anticipated in Spring 2017. You will be informed as soon as the proposed regulations are made public.

We would like to take the opportunity to thank you for having submitted constructive comments and suggestions on this very important issue. We look forward to your comments on the proposed regulations.

Yours sincerely,

Michel Béland
Director, Policy and Regulatory Services
Transport Canada, Civil Aviation
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Redneck_pilot86
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1209
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: between 60 and 70

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#4 Post by Redneck_pilot86 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:27 am

Any word on what the new regs will be? I'm all for shorter duty days, but I certainly hope this crap about basing your duty day on how many segments you do is not involved.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"

WeatherMaster
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:55 am

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#5 Post by WeatherMaster » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:58 pm

"A pilot is a pilot. Fatigue is fatigue," Adamus said. "It should be one year for everybody."

Canadian Transport Minister Marc Garneau told Reuters last week that the new rules would apply to commercial flights of a variety of sizes and be based on scientific evidence on fatigue, but did not give further details.

Some Canadian pilots, especially those working for small airlines, can be scheduled to work for up to 14 hours, while in the United States, Australia, the European Union and India, shifts range from nine to 13 hours depending on time of day.
I agree,that a pilot is a pilot..........Why should they delay the inevitable for everyone and just implement the new regulations, maybe split the difference and give everyone 2 years across the board to comply?

Secondly, I think that the duty day should be reduced from 14 hours to 12 hours across the board regardless of what group you fall under. a 14 hour day is a 14 hour day and you get fatigued just as much after 14 hours whether or not your flying under 703, 704 or 705....even the 604 should be regulated to 12 hour days.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Spokes
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1047
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:22 pm
Location: Toronto, On

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#6 Post by Spokes » Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:58 pm

Why does there always seem to be the notion that 702 pilots do not get fatigued?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wahunga!

DSoup
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:12 pm

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#7 Post by DSoup » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:48 pm

Spokes wrote:Why does there always seem to be the notion that 702 pilots do not get fatigued?
Likely because there's a tradeoff between safety and operations, and the level of flight safety compromise to the general public (Who is TC's main concern) between a fatigued 703+ pilot and a 702 pilot is different.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Instructor_Mike
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Manitoba

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#8 Post by Instructor_Mike » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:17 pm

A lot of TC regulations seem to be based off how many people could be killed if the plane crashes. Kind of a morbid way to put it but look at the licencing requirements for a pilot with an ultralight or rec permit who can carry 1 non-paying passenger vs a CPL pilot flying 703 or an AAs pilot flying 705.

As much as it would be nice for the "12 hour across the board" rule to come into play, it wouldn't surprise me if it had to come from the top down.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Panama Jack
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3188
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:10 am
Location: The Sandbox

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#9 Post by Panama Jack » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:28 pm

Redneck_pilot86 wrote:Any word on what the new regs will be? I'm all for shorter duty days, but I certainly hope this crap about basing your duty day on how many segments you do is not involved.
Why?

Is it because you honestly believe that flying numerous short sectors in a duty period is just as fatiguing as flying one long sector? Or is it because you don't want to be bothered consulting the table and calculating your maximum duty time?
---------- ADS -----------
  
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.”
-President Ronald Reagan

User avatar
Redneck_pilot86
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1209
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: between 60 and 70

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#10 Post by Redneck_pilot86 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:26 am

Panama Jack wrote:
Redneck_pilot86 wrote:Any word on what the new regs will be? I'm all for shorter duty days, but I certainly hope this crap about basing your duty day on how many segments you do is not involved.
Why?

Is it because you honestly believe that flying numerous short sectors in a duty period is just as fatiguing as flying one long sector? Or is it because you don't want to be bothered consulting the table and calculating your maximum duty time?
Its because when I start my day, i don't know how many sectors I will have that day. Lets say I start my duty day at 8 am, and fly 2 sectors. I then have a trip booked to do two more sectors at 5pm. At noon I get a call to do a quick trip out to a camp and drop off some gas. When I get to camp A, the guy says "hey, can you drop me at camp B on your way home?" All of a sudden I've done 5 benign flights and I'm unable to do the later flight that was booked.

Multiple sectors in the Day VFR world is a completely different amount of work, and a completely different amount of fatigue vs the same number of sectors flying IFR approaches to minimums with no autopilot all day. Flying one guy around on a survey job is not as fatiguing as hauling drums all day. As the rules stand now, I know ahead of time when my day starts and when it has to be done by. I don't really care how long the duty day is, most of the time I'm fine with 14 hours, sometimes I get tired and would prefer 12, or 10, or 8. What happens if I take off and get called back as the trip requires an extra seat, or I forgot a box? Is that another segment, which will make me "fatigued" at a different time?
---------- ADS -----------
  
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"

User avatar
Panama Jack
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3188
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:10 am
Location: The Sandbox

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#11 Post by Panama Jack » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:09 am

Redneck_pilot86 wrote:
Its because when I start my day, i don't know how many sectors I will have that day. Lets say I start my duty day at 8 am, and fly 2 sectors. I then have a trip booked to do two more sectors at 5pm. At noon I get a call to do a quick trip out to a camp and drop off some gas. When I get to camp A, the guy says "hey, can you drop me at camp B on your way home?" All of a sudden I've done 5 benign flights and I'm unable to do the later flight that was booked.

Multiple sectors in the Day VFR world is a completely different amount of work, and a completely different amount of fatigue vs the same number of sectors flying IFR approaches to minimums with no autopilot all day. Flying one guy around on a survey job is not as fatiguing as hauling drums all day. As the rules stand now, I know ahead of time when my day starts and when it has to be done by. I don't really care how long the duty day is, most of the time I'm fine with 14 hours, sometimes I get tired and would prefer 12, or 10, or 8. What happens if I take off and get called back as the trip requires an extra seat, or I forgot a box? Is that another segment, which will make me "fatigued" at a different time?
It's a valid point. Thanks.
---------- ADS -----------
  
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.”
-President Ronald Reagan

TG
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1631
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:32 am
Location: Around

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#12 Post by TG » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:22 am

Redneck_pilot86 wrote: Flying one guy around on a survey job is not as fatiguing as hauling drums all day
It depend on a lot of things (survey) But it's sure get tiring hand fighting a 28,000lbs aircrat to keep it on track inside the equivalence of an ILS at 300', bumpy conditions, 8hrs in a row. Two crew but still.
It's not that you can choose your FL to get a smoother ride while the auto pilot get you there.

That was my one sided view, very condescending for the airliners who on their side have to deal with night flights, time zones, congested area, slot time constrains, foreign ATC, etc...

Just to show that very single type of flying as its own challenge fatigue wise.
Not only type of flying but every flight itself. Drums you are hauling might be empty next time :wink:
It goes the same depending on your position. Captain or F/O. Experienced crew or having to baby sit someone. This someone having his/her own level of fatigue going through the roof trying to keep up drinking from the proverbial fire hose.
Never ending variables.

So regulating fatigue in aviation seems like a big burden to me, there is not way it will satisfy everybody.




But at least something is done. On a side note, I don't understand why there is still (!?) no duty time for engineers.
---------- ADS -----------
  

valleyboy
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#13 Post by valleyboy » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:37 am

I find the argument of vfr vs ifr to be without merit. The vfr guy slugs freight, as do some ifr ops. Doesn't matter what we do it all adds to fatigue. It's the accumulative factor that sneaks up and gets you. When we are young we are invincible and there lies the problem.
---------- ADS -----------
  

FrozenWrench
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:55 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#14 Post by FrozenWrench » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:39 am

Not trying to hijack this thread but now it creates a question. While trying to be safer and reduce duty times of pilots, why is there still no limit on the AME? I was sure this would be part of the this change up to the rules but yet again it seems that an AME can work for 30 hours straight in Canada and still be considered competent enough to do the job and sign it off.
---------- ADS -----------
  

co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3196
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#15 Post by co-joe » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:33 pm

I'd just like to see an end to the 8 hours uninterrupted happens in camp or at a hotel, and your official duty is when you are home with your spouse for 7 hours bullshit that rules the 703 world. It should read 8 hours uninterrupted rest at your own home plus time to get there and back. I knew so many pilots that lived an hour from the airport and yet somehow were able to meet CARs rest in 8.5 hours between landing and tomorrow's departure often including time to do the day's paperwork.
---------- ADS -----------
  

DSoup
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:12 pm

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#16 Post by DSoup » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:48 pm

I've always found that weird ^

Military rules say crew rest is when the last crew members arrives at the hotel and the first one departs the hotel and you need 12 hours of uninterrupted crew rest. For operational reasons that can be reduced to 8 hours of uninterrupted rest which I've always seen interpreted as being prone in bed. Boggles my mind that civilian operators are flogging their crews.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Gannet167
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 437
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:23 pm

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#17 Post by Gannet167 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:48 am

The military has its own special ways of flogging. All those "rules" get waived in a heartbeat when they become inconvenient.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Redneck_pilot86
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1209
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: between 60 and 70

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#18 Post by Redneck_pilot86 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:01 pm

co-joe wrote:I'd just like to see an end to the 8 hours uninterrupted happens in camp or at a hotel, and your official duty is when you are home with your spouse for 7 hours bullshit that rules the 703 world. It should read 8 hours uninterrupted rest at your own home plus time to get there and back. I knew so many pilots that lived an hour from the airport and yet somehow were able to meet CARs rest in 8.5 hours between landing and tomorrow's departure often including time to do the day's paperwork.
Plain and simple, those pilots are breaking the law. Changing the law will not break the mindset of people who are willing to break it. 8 hours of prone rest in your own home is impossible for a lot of 703 operators - helicopter pilots in camp, multi day pairings, weather delays away from base, etc.

There are tons of different types of flying in our industry, its absolutely asinine to think they can all be regulated under one regulation.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"

bobcaygeon
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 503
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#19 Post by bobcaygeon » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:37 am

There are 100's if not 1000's of pilots who work out of YYZ and YVR who make +125K-200K and choose to live 1-2 hrs from the crew room. That's +3 hrs of travel round trip plus meals, prep, etc. before prone rest. Where does the obligation stop on the employer's part and fall onto the employee who choses to mow the lawn, etc before his/her fatiguing day?? Are they really safe to be driving on the 401/400 that fatigued??

They have the most powerful pilot unions in this country and the world yet they still chose to abuse it. Commuters are the worst group ever for this crap. Bring it up and you can hear a pin drop except at WJ which has an awesome policy regarding commuting to start your pairing. It counts as part of your duty day just like a deadhead would because it is the same damn thing.
---------- ADS -----------
  

av8ts
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#20 Post by av8ts » Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:09 pm

It's a "duty" day not a how long have you been awake day. Weather your mowing your lawn or bringing your kids to school or hockey or commuting it's not part of your "duty" day. Unless it's a early morning report and you live next to the airport nobody is just getting out of bed and showing up for work. It's up to each pilot to ensure they are not fatigued. Personally I commute to work in the back of a plane which is less fatiguing that driving or running the kids around town to events
---------- ADS -----------
  

GRK2
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:04 am

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#21 Post by GRK2 » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:59 pm

Bobcaygeon,

What does salary have to do with this subject? Unless you've been hiding in a cave, you would know how much a condo or house costs in the GTA and YVR areas. So in order to have decent standard of living, most pilots have no choice but to live where they can afford to live. That usually means an hour or more drive, or a commute from another city where housing is more affordable, and the kids can live in a safe neighborhood, and their partner is working etc etc etc. It would seem your need to point out that the salary level has anything to do with duty days makes me think you're a little envious. Have a think about how and why the airlines and the Feds require you by law to be rested before a duty period. Then try to understand about how these people manage their personal lives and their responsibility to be properly rested before a duty day. Not that easy a thing to do. How much money they make is inconsequential to the subject.
---------- ADS -----------
  

bobcaygeon
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 503
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#22 Post by bobcaygeon » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:33 am

GRK2 wrote:Bobcaygeon,

What does salary have to do with this subject? Unless you've been hiding in a cave, you would know how much a condo or house costs in the GTA and YVR areas. So in order to have decent standard of living, most pilots have no choice but to live where they can afford to live. That usually means an hour or more drive, or a commute from another city where housing is more affordable, and the kids can live in a safe neighborhood, and their partner is working etc etc etc. It would seem your need to point out that the salary level has anything to do with duty days makes me think you're a little envious. Have a think about how and why the airlines and the Feds require you by law to be rested before a duty period. Then try to understand about how these people manage their personal lives and their responsibility to be properly rested before a duty day. Not that easy a thing to do. How much money they make is inconsequential to the subject.
Envious, yes that's it. I'm busted. I only mentioned salary because YYZ and YVR are expensive and does directly affect commute times. Lower wages increase commute times but the increased wages generally do not decrease the commute times.The stats show that the mean/median/mode income of residents within 30 min of YYZ/YVR are well below that of the average AC driver. Pools and putting greens in Barrie or KW are urban sprawl luxuries. If the loudest and most vocal groups (ACPA and ALPA) can't "afford" to live near YYZ/YVR how would the lower paid groups with less negotiating power for financial and rest periods at home base be more capable to meet the proper rest requirements that these groups feel they require?

Really Duty day vs awake day, nice try. The "science" used to back up the new regulations is based on human sleep rhythms, fatigue levels, hours of sleep, time when you are "awake" not just on duty plus many other factors.

If riding in the back of the plane commuting is more relaxing then why is it duty day when the company schedules it?? If anything it's more relaxing because it's confirmed and more likely to be J class vs middle seat?

Yet again, where does the employer's responsibility end?

There are definitely great upcoming changes to the regulations that are long overdue but "One size fits all" doesn't work especially in government.
They know how to make regulations target specific areas. Have you ever looked at the Income Tax act?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#23 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:40 pm

Forgive me for the craziness, as I know some pilots are abused and their QOL sucks, but I always enjoyed the flexibility of a 14hr duty day. Never worked for anyone who abused it, and when I was at the time building stage, it was great to maximize every day.

Work your butt off for a few years, to end up in a comfy position somewhere else. The operators and dispatchers I flew for always asked if we were ok to continue up to 14. Every now and then you get the odd 17 extension.

Today I still like the flexibility of a 14hr day, because it gives me the opportunity to get to where my passengers are going and home again, rather than having to overnight. Considering I only fly a couple times a month, I'm ok with a 14hr day if they are required for me to get home to my family.

I think rather than a hard restriction, if it was an increased emphasis on fatigue management and proper scheduling techniques, that would work out better than having TC step in, but there I go again.

I know this is going to mess up a lot of seasonal float and helicopter pilots unfortunately.

S.
---------- ADS -----------
  

AuxBatOn
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2885
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#24 Post by AuxBatOn » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:51 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote: I'm ok with a 14hr day if they are required for me to get home to my family.

This is exactly why we need more oversight on this matter: to prevent external pressure, like getting home, from getting in the way of safety related to fatigue... You may be okay to fly that last leg. The next guy may be too tired but heck, this next leg brings me home...
---------- ADS -----------
  
Going for the deck at corner

User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: New Flight Duty Time Regs are going to happen?

#25 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:16 pm

Fair enough, but in my humble opinion, everyone's stamina is different. I've seen guys who were worn out and complaining after 8 hour days, and other girls that were ready to peg on another segment after 14.

A 14 hour day with 2 segments is a pretty easy day. We do a lot of Caribbean flying and it may be 6 hours down on autopilot and 6 hours back. With a small stop for fuel, reload and head home, we squeeze just under the 14hr whistle. I do that perhaps 3 times a month in the fall when that type of flying picks up. If I'm not up for it, my company finds me a hotel down south for the night. Call me lucky I guess that I have managers that know how to take care of their crew, and leave some of those decisions to the ones they affect.

I understand the dangers of opening the 'they did it, so why can't you door', but at the end of the day, that's the company not understanding fatigue, dispatchers and managers squeezing a nickel out of a penny, and the pilot agreeing to more than they could offer.

I can see at the airlines (both pax and cargo), where there is more variability and over usage (basically anywhere that is unionized), that this blanket duty day can be useful to help prevent pilots falling prey to the 'he did, you do' shenanigans and pressure. But I am one of the few, I guess, where I feel comfortable not needing to rely on TC to govern my work day, anymore than they already do.

S.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”