Toronto to Niagara in 15 minutes

[pdw]

PDW, I had no idea about Small Air Advantage. Based on your involvement and experience, what would you say are the biggest obstacles facing this new start-up?

Marketing to maintain the enthusiasm that sells seats. Lots of good connections at the airport. Nothing negative (publicity etc) around to discourage customers ... ever. Nothing fast, everything smooth ... calm and cool. No need to make it across in 12 minutes. Give it 20 or even 30 ... then everybody's happy you made on time or even a bit early. (happiness means more ticket sales potential)

So yeah ...ticket sales when you need them, that's the biggest obstacle. Can they make it easy for someone (businessmen etc) to buy a ticket for someone else ?

Leading up to registering the business I organized the first trip in an Amphib Caravan to Crane Lake west of Parry Sound to bring some interest to a property that was for sale there by the dam (right here from Niagara). I was twisting arms all through town .. Virgil ... Niagara ... St Davids ... Port Weller ... to try and get a big enough group together to commit the trip (I'd say brought it to the attention of about 200 people/business-entities that I knew in the area); and in the end, Marty, the guy with the fishing rod, chickened out and we were 10 including Chris the pilot ... and man was that disappointing to see the Muskees jumping all around us while the owner of the property was shuttling pax back/forth to the cottage for viewing. When asked later by anyone who might have wanted to come along ... I said ohh, shucks, man there was ONE empty seat for you still available (but the truth is ...could see on the float capacity that we were nicely maxed out while waiting for the rowboat)

YYZSaabGuy, there needs to be an atmosphere around the passengers and pilots that is safe and friendly and relaxing. It's worth putting some extra effort into that, in my view. The no-go decision should be set up ahead of time. Ever see the youtube clip "The Rise and Fall of the Great Lakes" ... it's funny but it happens (ie fast change mid-lake); so be ready to smile as you 'option' the pax back home via 'ground' ... should be no biggie IMO / just bite the bullet and do it * ... sorry volks etc.

* Remembering that it's an inexpensive highway/Go-train ride to go around (esp when traffic is ok ) using the nearest Go station.

[fish4life]

Does anyone serve Pearson from Niagara?

[NAT2]

My car does, however, no air service though.

[fish4life]

One would think if London has a Market for it then Niagara would as well.

[round pounder]

I believe this venture has been tried before out of St. Catharines. I think it's a sound concept. however when the plane goes back and forth a few times empty, folks will start looking at the bottom line. The joys of scheduled service. Weather calls should be very simple. It's the PIC call but be prepared if you hire a green horned pilot his calls might be at a higher limit than that of a experienced pilot, but again bottom line will dictate who gets hired. Personally I don't think I would want to be slogging across the lake in a ho unless I was able to get a lot higher than they will be able to in such a short time frame. Regardless I hope this venture succeeds.

[pdw]

Do we need to get some kind of Coffee Club thing going there in the terminal to encourage the new business activity a little more ?

The terminal looks a bit empty & lonely... might be helpful to work on some atmosphere for those newbie / wanna be flyers (ticket buyers) that come in there checking it out.

[Rookie50]

As a business plan looking through that lens, wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole.

What Toronto lakeshore needs is fast, electrified rail service. Go train is a joke compared to service in Europe.

[pdw]

It's Niagara travellers who'll benefit the most. Seems TO-bound is selling faster so far. Wonder how many of those are using it simply for a quicker access to their Porter connection.

[RunwayWindAltimer]

Can anyone out there do some back of the napkin math on something like this?

I see $160 return for 8 people. So a full plane is $1280 total revenue. A round trip is being called 30 minutes, but I'm guessing you'd likely experience delays in and out of the Island (I mean, Porter does OWN the place).

Delays into and out of an airport are determined by ATC (NavCanada) on the basis of safety, not by the airport operator (PortsToronto), and not by the airport operator's tenant (Porter). Maybe some of the CYTZ tower staff who are here can comment on the suggestion that they'd delay traffic because Deluce told them to.

CYTZ to CYSN is 28nm direct. On a VFR day (and you can fly over the lake at 500') that's going to take about 12-15 minutes. Out of the Island you'd be cleared direct to YSN within about 3 seconds of taking off, and into the island you'd be cleared into the control zone direct to the left or right base for 26 or 08 respectively, just like all the other GA traffic coming over the lake.

IFR, you get your approach sequencing and clearance from ATC like everyone else - they're at Pearson and don't have even the remotest business, political or geographical connection to Porter.

Absolutely no delays given on the basis of who is operating the flight. Everybody follows the standard order of priority: IFR->VFR itinerant->VFR Local, and first-come, first-served, except when applying least overall delay (ie you're departing IFR in a PA31 with 2 DH8Ds to depart behind you, either they both get big delays waiting for you or you get bumped back and get a short delay).

[pdw]

To embark from the Toronto side ... what's walk-time to the plane ? At Niagara is real close to the doors of the terminal for on/off.

[photofly]

About sixty seconds. There's no way on earth they're going to get access to the gates, so they'll be using the Porter FBO.

[pdw]

The scheduled flights were to begin today, so I took the few minutes to stop by the Niagara terminal this morning; sure enough, like clockwork.

[marakii]

I thought there were no more landing slots for a new scheduled service into YTZ? Or is it charter?

[pdw]

Yes charter

Edit:
Rightwinglow, once everyone showed, they all got on and were off 11 minutes early. Bookings-wise, there were two seats avail when bookings ceased.

[rightwinglow]

The scheduled flights were to begin today, so I took the few minutes to stop by the Niagara terminal this morning; sure enough, like clockwork.

And what was the bookings like?

[pdw]

There was a seat available on yesterday aft flight. Pax are happy after, from what I've seen/heard. IMO the secret is to always have room ... the miniscule engine time required for this flight makes it cheap to look after every demand. A seat available for everyone that wants to go, so negative publicity is avoided. IMO someone who wants to go and cannot get a seat potentially hurts business by broadcasting their disappointment to others.

Friday's back from TO and Monday morning in ... will need an extra plane on standby already IMO, although the first two days of operation might be a little hard to tell what's coming exactly. Some businesses are into this already ... to support it; and something to keep in mind is in a small commuity like the Niagara area, the business-people all know each other.

[marakii]

Yes charter

Edit:
Rightwinglow, once everyone showed, they all got on and were off 11 minutes early. Bookings-wise, there were two seats avail when bookings ceased.

I wish them the outright success but:

Do they sell 'individual tickets' or did the passengers charter the plane outright. I thought you can't sell individual tickets as it makes it a scheduled service which is not allowed into YTZ due to the landing slots not available.

[Saxub]

If that's the case, I'm sure there's always ways around it.

Or they worked something out and because they are a small twin, they can come in and out without problems. Squeeze in between the big boys A LA Orca/KD Air in YVR.

[marakii]

I wonder if it's a nice place to gain employment flying for them and what kind of time they'll require.

[Rookie50]

Maybe the government will give them money too.

Not likely. Wrong province.