Diamond Flight Centre Experience

[fixedpitch]

I flew the Diamond C1 Eclipse a few years ago and didn't think it was worth the extra cost compared to the 172 rental or 152. Perhaps the DA 40 is a improvement but if the rental rate is higher than the 172 it still may not be worth the extra bucks -- especially if you're time building.

If you have wheels, try these guys about 30 minutes away in St. Thomas. Take that $600 bucks and buy some time on their Piper Apache...now that sounds like real fun.

http://www.learntofly.on.ca/

cheers

[DanJ]

At the risk of making an unhelpful comment, CFWGF, it sounds as if photofly has likely identified what the problem is. You see the same phenomenon with FTUs that offer float training, except it's even harder to rent from them. Some of them will rent floatplanes, but ONLY to former students. Some won't rent them at all. It's the same thing. Even the ones who rent to former students are taking a huge risk, because low-time pilots are unpredictable. It's just a fact of life.

Of course we're not talking about floatplanes here but the principle is the same. It could be that this Bill fellow could have handled the situation more diplomatically, or it could be that you could have. We have no idea what your body language might have been like during those times you were asking "innocent" questions about the check-out process; conversely there are a lot of strange characters in aviation.

I'm not saying you were wrong, or that the flight school guy was wrong... he might be a dick for all I know. For all I know, you might be! But the fact is that when a guy says "I'll rent you a plane after you've gone through our checkout process", it's probably best to say "OK, what's the next step?" instead of "why do I have to do two flights?" Or if a guy says "are you current?", it's probably best to say "I flew a cherokee two weeks ago" instead of "what do you mean by 'current?'"

I'm sure it was frustrating. But I think photofly is essentially correct. They probably don't particularly like to rent their planes, especially to people they don't know, and you were probably getting "the treatment" in the hopes that you would give up. Which you did.

This makes more sense to me than what photofly was saying though. He seemed to be making the argument that if there was money in renting planes, then Hertz would be renting planes at every airport they rent cars at. To me, having the planes there for training but not for renting would make sense if the planes were being utilized for training at the maximum number of hours possible. Seems to me I see a lot of their planes sitting there during the day, and I drive by there frequently. Maybe the rental rate is based on an expected number of training hours, but if the plane is available, renting it would make more money for the school. I think they are willing to rent, but it's like you suggest, first impressions are lasting ones, and I can understand that. I'm in trucking and we don't let anyone just walk in off the street and drive ours without a thorough checking out either. And it's harder to grab a replacement plane than a replacement truck.

[photofly]

Profit on renting an aircraft to a licenced pilot: $8.33/hr

Profit on renting an aircraft and instructor to a student pilot: $43.50/hr

You don't need to block out many lessons by having pre- booked a training aircraft to a renter before you're losing money hand over fist. Better actually to keep the aircraft free and on the ground.

[digits_]

Profit on renting an aircraft to a licenced pilot: $8.33/hr

Profit on renting an aircraft and instructor to a student pilot: $43.50/hr

You don't need to block out many lessons by having pre- booked a training aircraft to a renter before you're losing money hand over fist. Better actually to keep the aircraft free and on the ground.

It is not *that* easy. You need a certain amount of hours to cover your fixed costs. A big renters-client base is a good diversification of your activities in case the amount of students at your school is temporarily (too) low. You can adjust your check out procedures according to how busy you are: rigid 5 hour check out policies or half an hour to 5 hours, depending on what the student actually needs.

If you have 10 airplanes but only students for 6, it is a good idea to rent out the other 4, you might even charge an extra over night fee to bump up that profit margin.

[crazyaviator]

One thing I've noticed in aviation is that medium-larger FTU's have the greatest proportion of little men in the industry.

Perhaps IMHO I may answer to the perceived hidden meaning ? Having 3-7-10 immaculately dressed 4 bar instructors wandering around the halls of the most learned institutions , parroting their "earned" positions as class "whatever" instructors,,,, having either NO or next to NO experience in the real field of flying ,,,,attempting to teach their SLIGHTLY less "experienced" fledglings the intricate "art" of "advanced " flying and procedures as if they are indeed the gift from the most high,,,all the while feverishly writing down every minute of flying to gain admission to the grandiose world of shiny big airplanes ( right seat in a clapped out king air in a community you need a translator to say ) .

[Bede]

5x 5 ,

I picked my words carefully. No where did I write that everyone is a little man, and I prefaced my statement alluding to that it was my personal experience.

There's nothing wrong with being an instructor- I still instruct and believe it to be valuable experience. However from having worked in aviation from FTU's, bush, 703, airlines, I have experienced far more "little men" in the white shirt FTU'S crowd than I have in the hundreds of other pilots I have worked with. They're not all like that, just a greater proportion.

Here's just one example. I walk into an FTU to inquire about a check out. (I fully realize I need a check out, no issues). I'm told I need a 3 hour check out because I'm not current on a 152 despite that I'd flown 172 within the last couple months and still regularly fly light aircraft. Of course the guy throws in that just because I fly jets, it's a lot different than a 152, Yada, Yada, Yada. Despite that I still instruct on 172's plus fly bigger stuff. By comparison if some guy who only had a PPL jumped into a larger airplane with me, the only thing I'd say, is giver her hell. It's just another airplane with a few more buttons and a bit faster.

That's just one example.

Sorry for the self-righteous rant, but you did ask...

[photofly]

having either NO or next to NO experience in the real field of flying

What is "the real field of flying"? I'm curious.

[Ypilot]

Profit on renting an aircraft to a licenced pilot: $8.33/hr

Profit on renting an aircraft and instructor to a student pilot: $43.50/hr

You don't need to block out many lessons by having pre- booked a training aircraft to a renter before you're losing money hand over fist. Better actually to keep the aircraft free and on the ground.

It is not *that* easy. You need a certain amount of hours to cover your fixed costs. A big renters-client base is a good diversification of your activities in case the amount of students at your school is temporarily (too) low. You can adjust your check out procedures according to how busy you are: rigid 5 hour check out policies or half an hour to 5 hours, depending on what the student actually needs.

If you have 10 airplanes but only students for 6, it is a good idea to rent out the other 4, you might even charge an extra over night fee to bump up that profit margin.

See the underline sentence. Photofly profit numbers mean absolutely nothing. If your airplanes fly 150 hours or 500 hours a year, it won't be the same.

It would be more accurate to say that if all of your airplanes are busy with students, it is not worth it for a school to rent it to licensed pilots. Not profitable... LOL we all know that flight schools run like not for profit organism. Thanks for their generosity.

As for the comment on up front cash training bonds and the emotional debate, if you have a house or condo in Toronto, a decent amount of money in your bank account it is true it doesn't really matter, it is just risk management of your money. For a19 years old pilot with at least 65000$ of debt and no credit history, it is a different debate.

[photofly]

In fact a fairly small proportion of the costs of a 1973 C172 are fixed costs. Fuel, landing/flight fees, maintenance and parts are all based on hours flown. So it's mostly not worth renting them just to keep them in the air. Particularly when casual renters compete with students for the sunny Sunday afternoons when everyone wants to fly.

Now if renters were happy and competent to "keep the planes in the air" when it's overcast at 800, that would be a different story.

As the old saying goes, turnover is vanity, profit is sanity.

[yxu737]

If i were you i wouldn't waste my time in getting a checkout there. If you are looking for a place to fly and not get hosed Forest City Flight Centre is a way better option one flight checkout more than likely, a lot more freedom and they will work around you're schedule. I have had nothing but good experiences there and your money will go a lot further at Forest City.

[LtDan]

If i were you i wouldn't waste my time in getting a checkout there. If you are looking for a place to fly and not get hosed Forest City Flight Centre is a way better option one flight checkout more than likely, a lot more freedom and they will work around you're schedule. I have had nothing but good experiences there and your money will go a lot further at Forest City.

+1

Mike the CFI is awesome to work with, and will get you up and running in no time. They have a couple of 172s and a 152 online now so the schedule is quite flexible to suit your goals. Sometimes same day rentals are an option which is great for those Hanover breakfast cravings.

[goingnowherefast]

If that's the same Mike I'm thinking of, then I'll recommend them too. Used to run Crosswinds Aviation? Awesome guy. However it's been 10 years since I was flying down there.

[riaz6668]

@goingnowhere fast yes that's the same Mike from Crosswind aviation. Still the same awesome guy, same location, same outfit just new name. I worked for Mike for 3 years. Most honest guy in Flight training.

[avyonx]

In regards to DFC, Bill is a great guy with a great team. You must keep in mind here that they are not totally in the business of off the street training. If that's what you're looking for then you'll pay a little more. DFC is set up with the Western University Pilot Program which is a professional course and there is where his business model lies. He also has the cadet summer training course and in honesty with those 2 programs running having someone coming in to just rent essentially messes with his scheduling of flights and maintenance. I did all my flight training there but at the same time was an employee at Diamond so we had a deal. That was also several years ago. I set up a buddy of mine to complete his multi-IFR a few years back and was well looked after. If you just want to rent for a few hours I recommend going elsewhere but understand you'd like your time in a Diamond. That being said, follow their procedures as they have SOP's for their contracts, why deviate...

[lownslow]

having someone coming in to just rent essentially messes with his scheduling of flights and maintenance.

If they have no interest in training individuals, whatever the reason, they should consider removing the very publicly located front desk.

[CFWGF]

In regards to DFC, Bill is a great guy with a great team. You must keep in mind here that they are not totally in the business of off the street training. If that's what you're looking for then you'll pay a little more. DFC is set up with the Western University Pilot Program which is a professional course and there is where his business model lies. He also has the cadet summer training course and in honesty with those 2 programs running having someone coming in to just rent essentially messes with his scheduling of flights and maintenance. I did all my flight training there but at the same time was an employee at Diamond so we had a deal. That was also several years ago. I set up a buddy of mine to complete his multi-IFR a few years back and was well looked after. If you just want to rent for a few hours I recommend going elsewhere but understand you'd like your time in a Diamond. That being said, follow their procedures as they have SOP's for their contracts, why deviate...

I am sure Bill is an ok guy. If I was committing to Mult-Ifr training he would have have rolled out a red carpet. My whole objective was to fly a diamond because of its flight characteristics. Being prepared to write a written open book exam is not deviating.....

[fixedpitch]

My whole objective was to fly a diamond because of its flight characteristics.

Just curious...what's so interesting about a Diamond's flight characteristics?

[DanWEC]

My whole objective was to fly a diamond because of its flight characteristics.

Just curious...what's so interesting about a Diamond's flight characteristics?

The DV20 is a hell of a lot more fun than a 172!

Glides like a, well, glider, rudder you actually can feel and need to use, has a stick as opposed to a yoke, and gets you used to a variable pitch (pseudo constant speed) prop.

A bit finicky when it comes to temperature though.... they don't like anything below 14 degrees or above 15....

[CFWGF]

My whole objective was to fly a diamond because of its flight characteristics.

Just curious...what's so interesting about a Diamond's flight characteristics?

Cruise at 120kt with stall of 44kt. Handling with the push rod system instead of cables and pulleys gives better responsiveness to inputs. Climb performance.

[Stevo226]

In regards to DFC, Bill is a great guy with a great team. You must keep in mind here that they are not totally in the business of off the street training. If that's what you're looking for then you'll pay a little more. DFC is set up with the Western University Pilot Program which is a professional course and there is where his business model lies. He also has the cadet summer training course and in honesty with those 2 programs running having someone coming in to just rent essentially messes with his scheduling of flights and maintenance. I did all my flight training there but at the same time was an employee at Diamond so we had a deal. That was also several years ago. I set up a buddy of mine to complete his multi-IFR a few years back and was well looked after. If you just want to rent for a few hours I recommend going elsewhere but understand you'd like your time in a Diamond. That being said, follow their procedures as they have SOP's for their contracts, why deviate...

I started my instructor rating there a number of years ago when they were in the old building. After 4 flights I was told that there was no more availability for the next 2 months because a few western students were doing their instructor ratings. I said good ridence and got it done across the street in the next month or so. As far as I'm concerned they can all go pound salt from their high horse