Diamond Flight Centre Experience
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Diamond Flight Centre Experience
Since I joined the aviation world, I have always been interested in Diamond AC. So now that I am working out of London I decided to go check out the Diamond flight centre.
Just an FYI. I completed all my training in a 150,172 and PA28. I am a CPL with 300hrs and 27 years old.
My first impressions of the building and school were very good. I strolled around, checked out the line of DA20's and the Pilot Shop. It seemed every person was well dressed and clean cut. My intentions were to do a check out on a DA20 and from there on rent from the school.
I was then introduced to Bill Welsh, the president of the school. He asked what I wanted to do at the school and if I was current. I informed him of my intentions and asked him what current meant. He did not have an answer. I ended the awkward "ugh" with, Yes I was flying two weeks ago in a cherokee. He responded, "Okay well that's good". My next question was what does the check out consist of and how long does it generally take. He said there is an Open book exam and it would take most likely two flights to check out on the DA20. I agreed and innocently asked "why two flights?". He immediately looked down on me and said " Well maybe this is not the place for you."
I was slightly shocked by this response as if he jumped to the conclusion that I did not want to put in the work to learn the plane. I felt as if maybe I came off wrong and just asked him to clarify. He then said , "We have to perform a risk assessment on you and see how well you can fly the ac." I agreed and moved on feeling very uncomfortable and unwelcome. After looking around the school with him he said why don't you go home go over the POH and come back in and talk to us. I said okay sounds good I will see you tomorrow. His eyes opened wide and he responded, "well tomorrow might not be good as we close earlier." I questioned the times and we came to an agreement I would come in around 1600 and I would go over the G500 board and "talk" about the open book exam. I left questioning whether I would return.
I returned the next day to Bill being very enthusiastic and welcoming, Bill introduced me to an instructor and we began to converse about the next steps. During this conversation he said I would have to schedule a time to come and do the open book written. I had read through the full POH the night before and I was more than ready to complete their exam. I asked, "Can I do it right now?". He looked at me strangely with no response and I asked, "How long does the exam generally take?". Bill's immediate response was, " I don't think this is going to work out between us." I questioned why and reiterated it was just a general question and I was hoping to do their exam so I could fly the airplane. I felt that he did not want to give me the chance. He responded that I should take more time to learn the systems and mess around with their G500 Board. So I went on the mess around on a G500 for 30 minutes and spoke with the instructor about the a/c. I was feeling a lot better about the school just from him giving me the opportunity to do this.
As I was leaving, Bill came to speak with me and we discussed that I would go home review the POH more and then come and do the check out written. It seemed he was acting very phony. He went on to say, "I am glad we will be friends." I thanked him and left feeling slightly reduced. Almost as if I was not good enough to fly his plane's. I am not sure why he acted this way towards me.
This is one experience. I am not trying to hate on Bill. But just curious as to why he would treat someone who is willing to give him business and recommend other pilots to the diamond world. It just seemed I was unwanted as a sole renter. I will not be returning this time.
Anyone have any similar experiences or recommendations on why he would act this way?
Thanks!!
Just an FYI. I completed all my training in a 150,172 and PA28. I am a CPL with 300hrs and 27 years old.
My first impressions of the building and school were very good. I strolled around, checked out the line of DA20's and the Pilot Shop. It seemed every person was well dressed and clean cut. My intentions were to do a check out on a DA20 and from there on rent from the school.
I was then introduced to Bill Welsh, the president of the school. He asked what I wanted to do at the school and if I was current. I informed him of my intentions and asked him what current meant. He did not have an answer. I ended the awkward "ugh" with, Yes I was flying two weeks ago in a cherokee. He responded, "Okay well that's good". My next question was what does the check out consist of and how long does it generally take. He said there is an Open book exam and it would take most likely two flights to check out on the DA20. I agreed and innocently asked "why two flights?". He immediately looked down on me and said " Well maybe this is not the place for you."
I was slightly shocked by this response as if he jumped to the conclusion that I did not want to put in the work to learn the plane. I felt as if maybe I came off wrong and just asked him to clarify. He then said , "We have to perform a risk assessment on you and see how well you can fly the ac." I agreed and moved on feeling very uncomfortable and unwelcome. After looking around the school with him he said why don't you go home go over the POH and come back in and talk to us. I said okay sounds good I will see you tomorrow. His eyes opened wide and he responded, "well tomorrow might not be good as we close earlier." I questioned the times and we came to an agreement I would come in around 1600 and I would go over the G500 board and "talk" about the open book exam. I left questioning whether I would return.
I returned the next day to Bill being very enthusiastic and welcoming, Bill introduced me to an instructor and we began to converse about the next steps. During this conversation he said I would have to schedule a time to come and do the open book written. I had read through the full POH the night before and I was more than ready to complete their exam. I asked, "Can I do it right now?". He looked at me strangely with no response and I asked, "How long does the exam generally take?". Bill's immediate response was, " I don't think this is going to work out between us." I questioned why and reiterated it was just a general question and I was hoping to do their exam so I could fly the airplane. I felt that he did not want to give me the chance. He responded that I should take more time to learn the systems and mess around with their G500 Board. So I went on the mess around on a G500 for 30 minutes and spoke with the instructor about the a/c. I was feeling a lot better about the school just from him giving me the opportunity to do this.
As I was leaving, Bill came to speak with me and we discussed that I would go home review the POH more and then come and do the check out written. It seemed he was acting very phony. He went on to say, "I am glad we will be friends." I thanked him and left feeling slightly reduced. Almost as if I was not good enough to fly his plane's. I am not sure why he acted this way towards me.
This is one experience. I am not trying to hate on Bill. But just curious as to why he would treat someone who is willing to give him business and recommend other pilots to the diamond world. It just seemed I was unwanted as a sole renter. I will not be returning this time.
Anyone have any similar experiences or recommendations on why he would act this way?
Thanks!!
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
DA 20 has to be the simplest single engine out there.
It's basically a glider with an engine. Made out of plastic and the prop is wooden.
I must admit the way you described your experience, it did make me chuckle .....some people !! This industry is filled with too many big guys.
It's basically a glider with an engine. Made out of plastic and the prop is wooden.
I must admit the way you described your experience, it did make me chuckle .....some people !! This industry is filled with too many big guys.
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
I'd guess it goes something like this:CFWGF wrote: This is one experience. I am not trying to hate on Bill. But just curious as to why he would treat someone who is willing to give him business and recommend other pilots to the diamond world. It just seemed I was unwanted as a sole renter. I will not be returning this time.
Anyone have any similar experiences or recommendations on why he would act this way?
Thanks!!
He makes basically zero dollars per hour on rentals which he offers as a courtesy for students and so that new students have an incentive to train with him ab initio. You've spent all your training dollars somewhere else and he will never ever earn anything from you.
On the downside, you only have 300 hours - enough to think you know how to fly, but not enough to be reliable. You questioned all of his methods for assessing your risk, which means you don't want to engage in his process. Remember he's been doing this for decades longer than you: his decisions about an appropriate checkout process for low time pilots are based on experience and yours aren't. One tiny prang by you and that's an airplane out of commission for a month and unable to earn him instructor time.
So for him it's all risk and no reward. You are absolutely not the kind of customer he wants.
Ultimately he's not there to provide a public service, and you want to borrow a hundred thousand dollars of machinery from him without leaving a deposit. Best play nice.
That would be my guess.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
I agree with most of your hypothesis. The flight school is simply not willing to accommodate a renter who may be willing to pursue other ratings. Intelligent on their behalf.photofly wrote:I'd guess it goes something like this:CFWGF wrote: This is one experience. I am not trying to hate on Bill. But just curious as to why he would treat someone who is willing to give him business and recommend other pilots to the diamond world. It just seemed I was unwanted as a sole renter. I will not be returning this time.
Anyone have any similar experiences or recommendations on why he would act this way?
Thanks!!
He makes basically zero dollars per hour on rentals which he offers as a courtesy for students and so that new students have an incentive to train with him ab initio. You've spent all your training dollars somewhere else and he will never ever earn anything from you.
On the downside, you only have 300 hours - enough to think you know how to fly, but not enough to be reliable. You questioned all of his methods for assessing your risk, which means you don't want to engage in his process. Remember he's been doing this for decades longer than you: his decisions about an appropriate checkout process for low time pilots are based on experience and yours aren't. One tiny prang by you and that's an airplane out of commission for a month and unable to earn him instructor time.
So for him it's all risk and no reward. You are absolutely not the kind of customer he wants.
Ultimately he's not there to provide a public service, and you want to borrow a hundred thousand dollars of machinery from him without leaving a deposit. Best play nice.
That would be my guess.
Never did I state I did not want to engage in their check out process. I simply questioned the process out of curiosity and whether is would be worth it to me to spend $600 to check out on a DA20 that has a currency of 30 days. It is not hard to realize his experience compared to mine, I would never question that.
Ultimately they did not play nice.
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
photofly wrote:I'd guess it goes something like this:CFWGF wrote: This is one experience. I am not trying to hate on Bill. But just curious as to why he would treat someone who is willing to give him business and recommend other pilots to the diamond world. It just seemed I was unwanted as a sole renter. I will not be returning this time.
Anyone have any similar experiences or recommendations on why he would act this way?
Thanks!!
He makes basically zero dollars per hour on rentals which he offers as a courtesy for students and so that new students have an incentive to train with him ab initio.
So for him it's all risk and no reward. You are absolutely not the kind of customer he wants.
.
I can't figure this out. So after training a student, the FTU in the business of breaking even, or maybe a loss? FTU rent airplanes because they make money. Nobody is in business to break even.
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
I will spell this out as simply as possible. FTUs train students. (The secret is hidden in the name Flight Training Unit...) Having aircraft to rent after training is important to students beginning their training, and if they don't have aircraft to rent after training, they'll go somewhere else for the expensive and profitable training. Therefore all FTUs have to have aircraft to rent. It's not important or necessary for the aircraft rental to be profitable in its own right, and in fact it's a waste of capital to have aircraft rented to licenced pilots when they could be rented along with an instructor (whose markup is 250%) to a student.
If owning a fleet of aircraft to rent to 300 hour pilots were a profitable business in its own right then there would be many such businesses. As it is, all such business activities are merely accessories to profitable flight training, run as a carrot to dangle in front of prospective students. We may deduce the unprofitability of such rentals by their almost total absence from the market.
If owning a fleet of aircraft to rent to 300 hour pilots were a profitable business in its own right then there would be many such businesses. As it is, all such business activities are merely accessories to profitable flight training, run as a carrot to dangle in front of prospective students. We may deduce the unprofitability of such rentals by their almost total absence from the market.
Precisely. Which is why the OP got such a luke-warm reception to his ideas about wanting to hire aircraft. It's not a profitable activity and Bill whoever doesn't really want to do it.Nobody is in business to break even.
You aren't. And when you are, your choice of which school to do it at will be influenced by price and availability, like every other student. Bill has been doing this longer than you have.The flight school is simply not willing to accommodate a renter who may be willing to pursue other ratings.
No doubt Bill doesn't know or care whether it's worth it to you to spend $600, but he knows it's not worth it to him to do it for less.I simply questioned the process out of curiosity and whether is would be worth it to me to spend $600 to check out on a DA20 that has a currency of 30 days.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
You aren't. And when you are, your choice of which school to do it at will be influenced by price and availability, like every other student. Bill has been doing this longer than you have.The flight school is simply not willing to accommodate a renter who may be willing to pursue other ratings.
Incorrect. Not sure if you rent much. Most schools charge approx. $135-150 Wet. Little influence. The two schools I have flown with in the London area are very flexible with availability. Little influence. So I am left with whoever is the more welcoming school. Not stuck up or is in the better interest of the school.
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Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
I’m not sure why people make excuses for bad customer service at FTUs. In this case, how does the Diamond Flight Centre manager know that young CFWGF doesn’t want to get additional ratings or licenses? He’s only got a CPL – that leaves a lot of room for upselling.
Here’s the bottom line: you’re the customer, you’re the client. If Diamond Flight Centre can’t provide you with the quality of service you want, go elsewhere and forget it. Life is too short.
Here’s the bottom line: you’re the customer, you’re the client. If Diamond Flight Centre can’t provide you with the quality of service you want, go elsewhere and forget it. Life is too short.
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
i think we're basically in agreement. It sounds like DFC wants the OP to go elsewhere. If that's the case, and that's the message he took away, I'd say DFC's communication has been excellent.fixedpitch wrote:I’m not sure why people make excuses for bad customer service at FTUs. In this case, how does the Diamond Flight Centre manager know that young CFWGF doesn’t want to get additional ratings or licenses? He’s only got a CPL – that leaves a lot of room for upselling.
Here’s the bottom line: you’re the customer, you’re the client. If Diamond Flight Centre can’t provide you with the quality of service you want, go elsewhere and forget it. Life is too short.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
PF,
I find it interesting you defend the right of FTU's to run their business profitably, and turn away business that doesn't make sense (which is fine) but on these pages we find often pilots complain incessantly about employers, having to pay a training bond for the privilege of employment and receiving (expensive) training.
Seems to me to be a parallel argument, and it's the employers right to establish that model to protect their training investment.
I would say, it's not easy to start and run a business. If any model doesn't make sense, the free market will sort that out in time through competition -- either for the customer, or the employee.
I find it interesting you defend the right of FTU's to run their business profitably, and turn away business that doesn't make sense (which is fine) but on these pages we find often pilots complain incessantly about employers, having to pay a training bond for the privilege of employment and receiving (expensive) training.
Seems to me to be a parallel argument, and it's the employers right to establish that model to protect their training investment.
I would say, it's not easy to start and run a business. If any model doesn't make sense, the free market will sort that out in time through competition -- either for the customer, or the employee.
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
I don't think I've ever complained about training bonds. If you're asking me what my opinion is, I'm neutral about them. If I had to pay for one, or buy my own type rating, I'd figure in the market cost of the bond or the training and subtract it from the salary on offer to see if I still wanted the job. I don't see the point in getting philosophically or emotionally hung up on whose pocket the money comes out of when money is just a commodity that can be borrowed at x% per year.
Having said that, I'm not looking for a job that needs a type rating or training, so it's not my fight either way.
Having said that, I'm not looking for a job that needs a type rating or training, so it's not my fight either way.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
photofly wrote:I don't think I've ever complained about training bonds. If you're asking me what my opinion is, I'm neutral about them. If I had to pay for one, or buy my own type rating, I'd figure in the market cost of the bond or the training and subtract it from the salary on offer to see if I still wanted the job. I don't see the point in getting philosophically or emotionally hung up on whose pocket the money comes out of when money is just a commodity that can be borrowed at x% per year.
Having said that, I'm not looking for a job that needs a type rating or training, so it's not my fight either way.
We might not like either at times, but who puts up the money to fund the business, makes the rules.
Mistakes will be sorted out by the free market, and successful pilot employers, and FTU's will both likely have pilots lined up out the door --
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
I had a similar experience when I was looking around for time building/cpl training. Funny enough, it was also at a flying school operating diamonds (but not in Canada). Very neatly dressed, nice infrastructure, but very rigid procedures and checkout times etc. Also significantly more expensive than competitors, so that made life easy for me.CFWGF wrote: Anyone have any similar experiences or recommendations on why he would act this way?
The problem is that those programs are set up for the worst pilot they could possibly train to barely get the flight test standards. If you think you are an average or above average pilot, those procedures feel unnecessary and a waste of money. And if you actually are an above average pilot, then they are indeed a "waste" of money.
The most recognizable is the 'you have to study before you take the test'. If you know your stuff, you know your stuff. He wouldn't have risked anything by letting you do the test and worst case scenario, have you fail it. That would have pissed me off the most, as there is zero risk in having people challenge the test after they say they studied for it.
Did he charge you for the ground time to get ready for the test?
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
I had a similar experience, though not with Diamond airplanes.
A local flying place (at CZBB) were happy to take my money to do a checkout in a 172. I could fly their 172s around the local area all I wanted.
In theory, I could do checkrides for mountain flying and U.S. procedures and fly anywhere I want. My previous mountain and U.S. training and experience is all irrelevant, of course. I have to do their checkrides. I didn't mind. Review with an instructor is always good.
It turns out that only CPL students can do such checkrides in preparation for their long cross-country flights. Weekend warrior rental pilots? Ain't gonna happen.
I ended up buying my own plane. They've lost a customer, and they've lost any future referrals I might have given them.
...laura
A local flying place (at CZBB) were happy to take my money to do a checkout in a 172. I could fly their 172s around the local area all I wanted.
In theory, I could do checkrides for mountain flying and U.S. procedures and fly anywhere I want. My previous mountain and U.S. training and experience is all irrelevant, of course. I have to do their checkrides. I didn't mind. Review with an instructor is always good.
It turns out that only CPL students can do such checkrides in preparation for their long cross-country flights. Weekend warrior rental pilots? Ain't gonna happen.
I ended up buying my own plane. They've lost a customer, and they've lost any future referrals I might have given them.
...laura
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
If there is a widespread reluctance to make solo rental checkouts easy and welcoming then, I promise you, there are sound commercial and economic reasons for it. It's not just because flight school owners all have no idea about customer service.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
CFWGF,
One thing I've noticed in aviation is that medium-larger FTU's have the greatest proportion of little men in the industry.
One thing I've noticed in aviation is that medium-larger FTU's have the greatest proportion of little men in the industry.
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
Wow Bede - that pretty much wins this year's award for the most general (i.e. useless) slagging comment here on the Avcanada.Bede wrote:One thing I've noticed in aviation is that medium-larger FTU's have the greatest proportion of little men in the industry.
Any chance you want to elaborate as to exactly what you mean? With perhaps some factual comparisons to other similar sized aviation companies and some background as to how many actual FTUs you have personal experience with beyond what you read on a forum or happen to have taxied by.
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
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Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
At the risk of making an unhelpful comment, CFWGF, it sounds as if photofly has likely identified what the problem is. You see the same phenomenon with FTUs that offer float training, except it's even harder to rent from them. Some of them will rent floatplanes, but ONLY to former students. Some won't rent them at all. It's the same thing. Even the ones who rent to former students are taking a huge risk, because low-time pilots are unpredictable. It's just a fact of life.
Of course we're not talking about floatplanes here but the principle is the same. It could be that this Bill fellow could have handled the situation more diplomatically, or it could be that you could have. We have no idea what your body language might have been like during those times you were asking "innocent" questions about the check-out process; conversely there are a lot of strange characters in aviation.
I'm not saying you were wrong, or that the flight school guy was wrong... he might be a dick for all I know. For all I know, you might be! But the fact is that when a guy says "I'll rent you a plane after you've gone through our checkout process", it's probably best to say "OK, what's the next step?" instead of "why do I have to do two flights?" Or if a guy says "are you current?", it's probably best to say "I flew a cherokee two weeks ago" instead of "what do you mean by 'current?'"
I'm sure it was frustrating. But I think photofly is essentially correct. They probably don't particularly like to rent their planes, especially to people they don't know, and you were probably getting "the treatment" in the hopes that you would give up. Which you did.
Of course we're not talking about floatplanes here but the principle is the same. It could be that this Bill fellow could have handled the situation more diplomatically, or it could be that you could have. We have no idea what your body language might have been like during those times you were asking "innocent" questions about the check-out process; conversely there are a lot of strange characters in aviation.
I'm not saying you were wrong, or that the flight school guy was wrong... he might be a dick for all I know. For all I know, you might be! But the fact is that when a guy says "I'll rent you a plane after you've gone through our checkout process", it's probably best to say "OK, what's the next step?" instead of "why do I have to do two flights?" Or if a guy says "are you current?", it's probably best to say "I flew a cherokee two weeks ago" instead of "what do you mean by 'current?'"
I'm sure it was frustrating. But I think photofly is essentially correct. They probably don't particularly like to rent their planes, especially to people they don't know, and you were probably getting "the treatment" in the hopes that you would give up. Which you did.
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
To me, what stands out about this interaction, and similar ones that I've had having been checked out, and rented and flown at 6 different FTUs/Clubs in Ontario is that pretty soon, no one will be flying GA anymore.
Maybe it's economics. Maybe it's attitude of renters and FTUs. Maybe it's cyclical.
Whatever it is, it strikes me as sad.
Maybe it's economics. Maybe it's attitude of renters and FTUs. Maybe it's cyclical.
Whatever it is, it strikes me as sad.
Re: Diamond Flight Centre Experience
I appreciate everyone's perspective. It has come to my attention through some PM's that this is how that particular school operates from other experiences. My mission was to share this experience and let it be known. This is the first time I have encountered this. Every school I have entertained has always been willing to work with me and help me reach my goals. Lesson learned