Jazz vs Encore

[EllBee]

Looking at applying to the regionals. I'll send resumes to both but was looking for insider pros/cons for each airline. Any information would be appreciated.

[gtanorth]

Do you want to work for Air Canada or West Jet? The regional is simply the door to your career job - nothing more.

[teacher]

Cast a wide net and see what you get. I came from Jazz and now at AC via the PML. I think both companies are comparable now in terms of pay and schedule after the new Jazz contract

[skypirate88]

I don't work at Encore so I could be wrong, but I imagine Encore is a long wait for mainline. With the rate of expansion and the slow trickle of retirement even with 100% flow you could be sitting there for a while. (Not that that is a bad thing necessarily) The benefit of course is flow is eventually guaranteed.

The equipment bid over here at Jazz just closed, but prior to this bid, the left seat was going quite junior. We will find out in 2 weeks if that trend continues. With the number of new hires needed over at the Mothership, it would seem Jazz is a decent place to be to get you foot in the door with AC. We don't know what the new PML will look like yet. That picture should become a little more clear once this bid closes. If it resembles anything like what I've heard, I seems like it will just be an interview, in order of your seniority at each of the Express carriers.

Pay between Encore are similar. Both have some sort of Employee Share Purchase program. New hire pension at Jazz is 3% of gross income, matched 100% by the company. Our benefits, while expensive, are second to none. In my opinion, we also have very good scheduling rules. We get 12 GDOs a month, with most guys getting more. You can get anything from single day trips, to four day trips.

I would simply apply and take the first offer that comes your way, if regional flying is where you want to be next. I think you can't really go wrong with either.

[foxtrotlimayankee]

I don't work at Encore so I could be wrong, but I imagine Encore is a long wait for mainline. With the rate of expansion and the slow trickle of retirement even with 100% flow you could be sitting there for a while. (Not that that is a bad thing necessarily) The benefit of course is flow is eventually guaranteed.

The equipment bid over here at Jazz just closed, but prior to this bid, the left seat was going quite junior. We will find out in 2 weeks if that trend continues. With the number of new hires needed over at the Mothership, it would seem Jazz is a decent place to be to get you foot in the door with AC. We don't know what the new PML will look like yet. That picture should become a little more clear once this bid closes. If it resembles anything like what I've heard, I seems like it will just be an interview, in order of your seniority at each of the Express carriers.

Pay between Encore are similar. Both have some sort of Employee Share Purchase program. New hire pension at Jazz is 3% of gross income, matched 100% by the company. Our benefits, while expensive, are second to none. In my opinion, we also have very good scheduling rules. We get 12 GDOs a month, with most guys getting more. You can get anything from single day trips, to four day trips.

I would simply apply and take the first offer that comes your way, if regional flying is where you want to be next. I think you can't really go wrong with either.

A straight up and honest reply that answered the question that was asked!? I didn't know that was possible on this site. Kudos to you!

[JBI]

I agree pretty much with everything skypirate88 has said. A couple more thoughts:

Where do you want to live? Most of Encore's recent growth has been in YYZ, but there will be some more in YYC in the near future. It sounds as if, for the short term at least, most of Jazz's growth will be in the West - though this upcoming bid will likely show more details. However, all the new hires I know at both Jazz and Encore have received their preferred base in less than a year.

Although the upgrade times at Jazz are decreasing rapidly, it still appears that an upgrade will be quicker at Encore than Jazz for the time being.

Encore's scheduling is improving quite a bit now that their route network is maturing. I think the higher seniority Jazz guys generally have it better than Encore folks, but most of the pilots I know at each company are generally content with their schedule. Encore doesn't do its schedule based on seniority. So the new guys get a schedule that's as good as the senior guys based on their preferences.

The "Showcase Showdown" for each is the type of "flow".

Encore's is pretty much guaranteed and new pilots are added on the same list as WJ pilots. But, the demographics at mainline suggests that movement will not be all that quick with the younger pilot group. This is obviously dependent upon the growth, if any, of the wide body program. The first Encore pilots have flowed to mainline. The wait was about 2.5- 3 years for them. I imagine that the time will increase for those hired now (but, those hired now will likely be Captain at Encore pretty quick).

Jazz, and the other Express regionals, offers an interview or something similar with Air Canada. As far as I know it's not set in stone what the process will be going forward, but it's only an interview and not a set flow. However, the growth and movement at Air Canada will likely be quite quick with all the upcoming retirements.

Both offer pretty good career options.

Best of Luck!

[EllBee]

Thanks for all the info. I'm looking to stay out west (hopefully based in Yvr at some stage but I'd take whatever I'm offered). I would love to fly for Air Canada eventually which is why I'm leaning towards Jazz, but with no guaranteed flow to AC it would be tough to invest in a company only to get PFO'd trying to make the jump to mainline...not to sell myself short but you never know. End game is that I know people who work for both AC and WJ, and their respective regionals, and every one of them is happy with the choice they've made so I'm sure I won't regret wherever I end up.

[skybaron]

Jazz definitely trumps Encore for WAWCON.
From what I understand, the fellas at Encore are in for a pay cut come January. Getting better??

If you want to call them "similar" companies, then just pick the one that will give you less of a pay cut when the time comes to "advance your career" to become a real pilot by either PML or Flow.

[mel gibson]

740 retirements in 5 years at AC mainline starting 2017. Age 65 started in 2012.
2017 is what everyone is waiting for. 140-160 per year again.
Demographic much younger at Westjet mainline.
AC travel perks pretty cool. A lot of new airplanes coming.
Morale a bit low at Westjet mainline it seems to me.
Good luck , fly safe!

[Lateralus]

This is a no brainer. Go to Jazz, and go to AC.

[flyer 1492]

Here are the pension numbers from Contract 3

.04 All Pilots hired after January 30th, 2015, shall be enrolled in a Company Sponsored
Defined Contribution Plan (DC) as per the YOS contribution rate below:
YOS PILOT COMPANY
1st 4% 4%
2nd-3rd 5% 5%
4th 6% 6%
5th 6% 7%
6th+ 6% 8%

[Kosiw]

Will both company's finally run out of applicants come the big hiring in 2017 due to AC, and adding any hiring by Transat, Sunwing, SkyRegional and Porter to the mix??

[goingnowherefast]

No, they'll just keep lowering the requirements.
Typical hires used to have ~3000hrs, with 2500 being on the low side. Today it's ~2000 hours with 1300 acceptable as long as ATPL exams written and some M-PIC.

Apparently there are some guys now at seniority numbers that can upgrade, but without the an ATPL and missing the PIC time requirements. Basically, career FOs unless they rent or go to the 703 world for a year.

[gtanorth]

It is somewhat crazy that people consider differences between two top tier regional carriers when the decision needs to be based on the job at the end of the carrot where you will be spending 25 + years.

[rxl]

Nothing crazy about it considering that the majority of those hired by Jazz or Encore will not make it to the "promised land".

[atphat]

? My understanding is all encore pilots will eventually get to mainline. As for jazz I would imagine the majority would eventually get to AC. Why do you think the contrary?

[Saxub]

? My understanding is all encore pilots will eventually get to mainline. As for jazz I would imagine the majority would eventually get to AC. Why do you think the contrary?

Maybe he is one of the few who got PFO'd

[rxl]

? My understanding is all encore pilots will eventually get to mainline. As for jazz I would imagine the majority would eventually get to AC. Why do you think the contrary?

Maybe he is one of the few who got PFO'd

First of all it is my sincere hope that everyone achieves their career goals whatever they may be.

As far as my being "PFO'd" - as a matter of fact, it was the other way around - but that's another story.

A lot of very talented people have been "PFO'd" for reasons that escape me.
31+ years at Jazz and its forerunner carriers, so I have seen a lot of people come, go and stay.

The reality is that not everyone that wants the "mainline" is going to get hired, nor does everyone want to go that route, and that's OK.
The Pilot Mobility Agreement that currently exists between Air Canada and Jazz (soon to be extended to all Express carriers) guarantees an interview only.
On the Westjet side of things, an overall younger demographic means that it may be a long wait at Encore for that "mainline" seat to come around. In the mean time, why wouldn't an applicant want to have the best WAWCON or have the expectation of a good career at a so-called "regional" airline?

There is no more powerful fuel for the "race to the bottom" in our industry than the attitude that the regional carriers are only to be used as stepping stones to something bigger and better.

Good luck to all.

[Nark]

rxl,

Yours and every pilots career goal should be: the paycheck matches the name painted on the aircraft.

[rxl]

rxl,

Yours and every pilots career goal should be: the paycheck matches the name painted on the aircraft.

I've lost track of how many different names have been painted on the aircraft of the airlines that eventually became Jazz Aviation DBA Air Canada Express. Those names - as far as I know - always matched the pay cheque, so I'm not sure what the name painted on the aircraft has to do with it.

The goal should be for pilot unity.

The goal should be for long, safe and satisfying careers that provide a good standard of living for the pilots and for their families.