Hi,
Can someone point me in the right direction for what is involved for purchasing a plane in the US and getting it back home into Canada. Experiences welcomed.
Buying aircraft in the US
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
A ball park number is $10k for a single by the time it's here. I've seen too many horror stories and would never do it.
Maintenance standards are quite subjective for light aircraft and from my experience Canadian AME's are considerably more rigorous.
Maintenance standards are quite subjective for light aircraft and from my experience Canadian AME's are considerably more rigorous.
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
it's totally doable. $10k would be typical, and six to eight weeks.
However if you pick the wrong airplane, you're pooched : it's not maintenance requirements that are the problem (Canadian AMEs are just as variable as their US counterparts, and besides the state of maintenance of the aircraft is peripheral to the import - at the worst, you just have to pay for the work which you'd probably want to do even if you were keeping the aircraft in the US).
What counts for more is whether the aircraft has been modified so it no longer matches its type certificate. US FSDOs and A&Ps routinely sign off modifications that won't pass in Canada and would have to be reversed or removed before the aircraft is eleigble for a Canadian registration. Upgraded brakes, engines, seats, fuel tanks - anything ad-hoc that a FSDO guy signed off on has to come off and be restored to the manufacturers specification, unless the paperwork is just right.
In brief anything supported by approved or acceptable data is likely to be ok, as is anything on an STC. Any field modifications approved on the say so of an A&P won't be. So get the paperwork checked by an expert in the field before you're committed.
However if you pick the wrong airplane, you're pooched : it's not maintenance requirements that are the problem (Canadian AMEs are just as variable as their US counterparts, and besides the state of maintenance of the aircraft is peripheral to the import - at the worst, you just have to pay for the work which you'd probably want to do even if you were keeping the aircraft in the US).
What counts for more is whether the aircraft has been modified so it no longer matches its type certificate. US FSDOs and A&Ps routinely sign off modifications that won't pass in Canada and would have to be reversed or removed before the aircraft is eleigble for a Canadian registration. Upgraded brakes, engines, seats, fuel tanks - anything ad-hoc that a FSDO guy signed off on has to come off and be restored to the manufacturers specification, unless the paperwork is just right.
In brief anything supported by approved or acceptable data is likely to be ok, as is anything on an STC. Any field modifications approved on the say so of an A&P won't be. So get the paperwork checked by an expert in the field before you're committed.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
Photofly's advice is right on. I bought a couple of 182s in the US for friends. It all worked out fine in both cases, though there were a few little surprises. If my friends had had a tight budget, there would have been problems. as it was, we were fine. There were unapproved mods on both aircraft, and casual repairs, we just redid them as needed.
One little gotcha was that the prop on one of the aircraft had 13 years since overhaul. Legal in the US, but not in Canada. Fortunately, we were planning to change the prop anyway.
The 10$K figure is a good thinking point. Let alone exchange, you're going to have to have a prepurchase inspection done, best by a Canadian AME, who knows our rules. Then there's the cost to get it home.
Have the GST/HST ready when you cross the border. In the case of one, I had to provide a certified cheque, which was a problem, as the value floated with the exchange, so I could not have it ready in advance. More recently, the government took payment by credit card, before I crossed the border. That border agent really knew his planes, and asked a lot of well thought out questions. He was referring to the ad for the plane on the internet as we spoke, judging by his precise questions.
Both were good experiences, though could have been worse, if they had been budget projects.
One little gotcha was that the prop on one of the aircraft had 13 years since overhaul. Legal in the US, but not in Canada. Fortunately, we were planning to change the prop anyway.
The 10$K figure is a good thinking point. Let alone exchange, you're going to have to have a prepurchase inspection done, best by a Canadian AME, who knows our rules. Then there's the cost to get it home.
Have the GST/HST ready when you cross the border. In the case of one, I had to provide a certified cheque, which was a problem, as the value floated with the exchange, so I could not have it ready in advance. More recently, the government took payment by credit card, before I crossed the border. That border agent really knew his planes, and asked a lot of well thought out questions. He was referring to the ad for the plane on the internet as we spoke, judging by his precise questions.
Both were good experiences, though could have been worse, if they had been budget projects.
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
I imported mine in 1999. Not an easy process but there were no good certified Pitts in Canada at the time so I had no choice.
If I remember correctly you have two choices.
1) Hand over the money, fly the plane here, pay your HST/GST and then ground the plane. It can no longer fly until its reregistered in Canada. To do this it has to be deregistered in the US , the FAA sends a letter to TC who will then allow you to register it. Then it needs an inspection to ensure it meets its type certificate etc. if it does not you have to correct the problems before it can be certified in Canada. Typically these problems revolve around anything with a 337. As a result prior to any import you should ask to see every 337 document associated with the plane and ask your local mechanic if this will be acceptable in Canada. Some are, some are not. This process gets the plane on Canadian soil very quickly but you then end up waiting in limbo a bit in Canada.
2) the Export C of A. This method allows you to have the plane inspected by a DAR in the USA prior to handing over a penny to the owner. The DAR can issue an export C of A for the aircraft which essentially says that the plane meets its type certificate. You then pay the owner, deregister the plane, reregister it in Canada, stick on the C-registration, insure it and then fly it home. Pay your Hst/Gst at the border and then you need only a much simpler inspection which looks at any differences between US and Canadian maintenance regs. So prop overhaul etc. So this process is much faster once its on Canadian soil.
Assuming mechanically you want the plane, the next most important thing to do is to look at every big of paper work that shows repairs or modifications to the plane. If those are all acceptable in Canada then you can fairly safely pay the owner and have a good likelihood of a trouble free importation (although it may take a month or two). If you miss some modification you may have to re-do it and if that a 50k prop/engine/avionics job .. well ...
If I remember correctly you have two choices.
1) Hand over the money, fly the plane here, pay your HST/GST and then ground the plane. It can no longer fly until its reregistered in Canada. To do this it has to be deregistered in the US , the FAA sends a letter to TC who will then allow you to register it. Then it needs an inspection to ensure it meets its type certificate etc. if it does not you have to correct the problems before it can be certified in Canada. Typically these problems revolve around anything with a 337. As a result prior to any import you should ask to see every 337 document associated with the plane and ask your local mechanic if this will be acceptable in Canada. Some are, some are not. This process gets the plane on Canadian soil very quickly but you then end up waiting in limbo a bit in Canada.
2) the Export C of A. This method allows you to have the plane inspected by a DAR in the USA prior to handing over a penny to the owner. The DAR can issue an export C of A for the aircraft which essentially says that the plane meets its type certificate. You then pay the owner, deregister the plane, reregister it in Canada, stick on the C-registration, insure it and then fly it home. Pay your Hst/Gst at the border and then you need only a much simpler inspection which looks at any differences between US and Canadian maintenance regs. So prop overhaul etc. So this process is much faster once its on Canadian soil.
Assuming mechanically you want the plane, the next most important thing to do is to look at every big of paper work that shows repairs or modifications to the plane. If those are all acceptable in Canada then you can fairly safely pay the owner and have a good likelihood of a trouble free importation (although it may take a month or two). If you miss some modification you may have to re-do it and if that a 50k prop/engine/avionics job .. well ...
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
1. Not that easy. The second you hand over the money, the aircraft is grounded as the reg is invalid. Unless you've US resident status. So the owner has to let you fly it into Canada (and you need a US pilot certificate to do that) before they get paid. Or else you use an escrow service.
2. The export C of A is a waste of time and money. It doesn't significantly shorten the import process and a Ministers Delegate still has to inspect it soup-to-nuts to verify type certificate conformance. I wouldn't waste my money and time a second time.
You can get a temporary Canadian reg and a ferry permit, but the aircraft sits in the US under your title and risk for a week while the FAA certifies the deregistration to TC so they can issue temporary marks.
Found this:
http://www.copaedmonton.ca/index_htm_fi ... ements.pdf
2. The export C of A is a waste of time and money. It doesn't significantly shorten the import process and a Ministers Delegate still has to inspect it soup-to-nuts to verify type certificate conformance. I wouldn't waste my money and time a second time.
You can get a temporary Canadian reg and a ferry permit, but the aircraft sits in the US under your title and risk for a week while the FAA certifies the deregistration to TC so they can issue temporary marks.
Found this:
http://www.copaedmonton.ca/index_htm_fi ... ements.pdf
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
-
Doering
- Rank 0
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:39 pm
- Location: Dundas, Ontario, Canada
- Contact:
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
Hi all!
Thanks for all this terrific info and insight. You have answered a lot of questions here. Appears to be a few options to complete the process, but certainly many openings for things not to go smoothly. I think I'm going to be patient and wait to see what the Canadian market has to offer in the next few months.
Thanks for all this terrific info and insight. You have answered a lot of questions here. Appears to be a few options to complete the process, but certainly many openings for things not to go smoothly. I think I'm going to be patient and wait to see what the Canadian market has to offer in the next few months.
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
Export C of A
When I imported mine I used this method and the inspection in Canada was paper only and took less than a day.
Since in my case the Annual had just been done in the US and the US DAR did his inspection while it was apart the export C of A was cheap too. Also did not need an annual again on import.
I agree it is a pain but if you can get an export c of a done with an Annual and pre purchase you can derisk and save money.
When I imported mine I used this method and the inspection in Canada was paper only and took less than a day.
Since in my case the Annual had just been done in the US and the US DAR did his inspection while it was apart the export C of A was cheap too. Also did not need an annual again on import.
I agree it is a pain but if you can get an export c of a done with an Annual and pre purchase you can derisk and save money.
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
If you eliminate any non-STC mods (i.e. 337 etc.) and repairs/overhauls needed to comply with CDN rules (e.g. the prop overhaul issue) then the $10k is considerably high for the importation bureaucracy.
Case in point, a simple Cessna single, bought in the US & imported:
1) De-registered in the US, CDN registration obtained & marks applied.
2) CDN temporary flight permit obtained.
3) Flown home by CDN pilots.
4) HST paid at the airport of entry.
5) Grounded upon arrival at home airport IAW flight permit
6) Type Certificate inspection, annual inspection & paperwork done, CDN C of A issued.
7) Enjoy your new airplane!
In hindsight, the export C of A as discussed by CGZRO would have made the process simpler and saved a not inconsiderable amount of the fee charged by the MD. There was confusion at the time about the value of the import C of A.
Of course if you have something more complex then expect a commensurate increase in the bureaucracy and cost.
Count on you or your AME not liking some of the maintenance of those who have worked on the A/C previously adding to your cost but that's the same irrespective of where the A/C came from.
D
Case in point, a simple Cessna single, bought in the US & imported:
1) De-registered in the US, CDN registration obtained & marks applied.
2) CDN temporary flight permit obtained.
3) Flown home by CDN pilots.
4) HST paid at the airport of entry.
5) Grounded upon arrival at home airport IAW flight permit
6) Type Certificate inspection, annual inspection & paperwork done, CDN C of A issued.
7) Enjoy your new airplane!
In hindsight, the export C of A as discussed by CGZRO would have made the process simpler and saved a not inconsiderable amount of the fee charged by the MD. There was confusion at the time about the value of the import C of A.
Of course if you have something more complex then expect a commensurate increase in the bureaucracy and cost.
Count on you or your AME not liking some of the maintenance of those who have worked on the A/C previously adding to your cost but that's the same irrespective of where the A/C came from.
D
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
How would you fly the US part of the leg with this? I thought this was only valid in Canadian airspace...Pavese wrote: 2) CDN temporary flight permit obtained.
Source: https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... t-1207.htm (towards the bottom of page)A Provisional Certificate of Registration is valid only in Canadian airspace and expires upon completion of the flight or on the specified expiry date, whichever occurs first. Approval must be obtained from the foreign aviation authority for flight in foreign airspace.
How does the above mentioned process differ for an experimental/hombuild eg a pitts s1 ?
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-
RatherBeFlying
- Rank 7
- Posts: 683
- Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:27 am
- Location: Toronto
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
Back in 2013, PNR did not require an MSI-26 for CofR.
The FAA will on request fax you a copy of the Notice of Deregistration, but it takes sweettalking to get them to fax to a Canadian area code. Hint: Find a US fax machine and don't leave the US until you have the fax from the FAA.
Attach a copy of the FAA Notice to your CofR application along with phone number to give credit card number and you might just get your CofR issued the same day - do let them know where you would like the CofR delivered to.
In my case an Alberta MD-M did not like the repair history while an Ontario MD-M knew the US AME who did the repairs. Guess which one I used.
As others have stated, it's best to have your MD-M review the repair history before putting money down.
The FAA will on request fax you a copy of the Notice of Deregistration, but it takes sweettalking to get them to fax to a Canadian area code. Hint: Find a US fax machine and don't leave the US until you have the fax from the FAA.
Attach a copy of the FAA Notice to your CofR application along with phone number to give credit card number and you might just get your CofR issued the same day - do let them know where you would like the CofR delivered to.
In my case an Alberta MD-M did not like the repair history while an Ontario MD-M knew the US AME who did the repairs. Guess which one I used.
As others have stated, it's best to have your MD-M review the repair history before putting money down.
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
Not remembering that detail, probably accepted based on CDN A/C and CDN C of A(?)digits_ wrote:How would you fly the US part of the leg with this? I thought this was only valid in Canadian airspace...Pavese wrote: 2) CDN temporary flight permit obtained.
D
-
fleetcanuck
- Rank 2
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:36 pm
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
Also make sure any (major) work done in the USA has been done by a shop approved by TC. I recall a twin Commander that needed to get both engines re-majored on import. It had a nice fancy paint job though!
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
When I imported mine in 2010, the process I followed was this (from memory, I think i've got it all):digits_ wrote:How does the above mentioned process differ for an experimental/hombuild eg a pitts s1 ?
1. de-register aircraft in the US - this required arranging for the FAA to see the aircraft and confirm that the US letters had been removed, apparently they may or may not want to see it in person... sometimes a photo is enough. The letters were vinyl decals, I don't know what they would require if they were painted on.
2. register the aircraft in Canada - temporary C-of-R
3. obtain insurance - insurance company had no problem with any of this
4. apply temporary markings for the flight home - Staples vinyl lettering
5. FAA issued flight permit from aircraft's location to the US/CAN Border
6. TC issued flight permit from US/CAN border to my hangar in Canada
7. Flew aircraft back myself - Canadian license, Canadian aircraft
I spent more time figuring out exactly what I had to do, than I did actually doing it. It really was a lot easier than it sounded. I wrote an article on the import process for the RAA magazine at the time... 2010, March/April issue... Available online here: http://raa.ca/magazine_pdf/MarApril2010lowres.pdf
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
So there was no technical inspection/import inspection in Canada?AirFrame wrote:When I imported mine in 2010, the process I followed was this (from memory, I think i've got it all):digits_ wrote:How does the above mentioned process differ for an experimental/hombuild eg a pitts s1 ?
1. de-register aircraft in the US - this required arranging for the FAA to see the aircraft and confirm that the US letters had been removed, apparently they may or may not want to see it in person... sometimes a photo is enough. The letters were vinyl decals, I don't know what they would require if they were painted on.
2. register the aircraft in Canada - temporary C-of-R
3. obtain insurance - insurance company had no problem with any of this
4. apply temporary markings for the flight home - Staples vinyl lettering
5. FAA issued flight permit from aircraft's location to the US/CAN Border
6. TC issued flight permit from US/CAN border to my hangar in Canada
7. Flew aircraft back myself - Canadian license, Canadian aircraft
I spent more time figuring out exactly what I had to do, than I did actually doing it. It really was a lot easier than it sounded. I wrote an article on the import process for the RAA magazine at the time... 2010, March/April issue... Available online here: http://raa.ca/magazine_pdf/MarApril2010lowres.pdf
I know it is a requirement for certified airplanes but I am a bit confused on the amateur built/experimental regulations in this regard.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Buying aircraft in the US
Sorry, I left off the "after import" details. Yes, amateur-built aircraft get inspected similar to certified aircraft. An amateur-built gets an inspection equivalent to the "final" inspection that a newly-built aircraft would receive, and the inspection is done by the same people that inspect newly-built aircraft (MD-RA). I cover that in the article in the RAA magazine.
Oh, and just to be clear, the technical inspection happens after the aircraft is landed in Canada. So you do want to do your homework to know that the aircraft will pass, or will only have minor snags to fix, before you buy... You'll be home with it and money paid before you find out. The same is true for certified aircraft, however... Many US certified aircraft have one-off mods done on a "337 form" or "field approval", and Transport Canada doesn't recognize those. Those mods generally have to be reversed/removed unless an STC can be found to cover them.
Oh, and just to be clear, the technical inspection happens after the aircraft is landed in Canada. So you do want to do your homework to know that the aircraft will pass, or will only have minor snags to fix, before you buy... You'll be home with it and money paid before you find out. The same is true for certified aircraft, however... Many US certified aircraft have one-off mods done on a "337 form" or "field approval", and Transport Canada doesn't recognize those. Those mods generally have to be reversed/removed unless an STC can be found to cover them.
