When flying is your second career
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When flying is your second career
Thanks for the responses. We fully understand that a pay cut will be necessary. As for being tough on marriage, I'm pretty sure we've been through a lot worse than the aviation industry can throw at us. We both already work shift work we are used to rediculous hours.
Last edited by pilot_wife on Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: When flying is your second career
It's definitely a one fits all kind of industry. I remember flying with a captain up north that was a big shot lawyer from Toronto dealing with corporate litigation and acquisitions and had spent 1 year on the ramp. Unlike other industries that credit you for past experiences relevant or not, I'd say if your husband is not willing to work on the ramp then instructing would be the next option for him.
Re: When flying is your second career
There's a difference between what people say and what the truth is. Places that hire on the ramp to test "work ethic" are actually testing something quite different. Will you do as you're told? Will you complain when things don't go as promised? Do we like you?
There are a lot of pilots out there who's only marketable skill is flying. Many of them have degrees but in "Aviation" or "Aviation Management". In that case working the ramp is not an unreasonable option. For those of us with other more remunerative skills, it makes far more sense to use those skills to earn a living while continuing to fly and build up experience and contacts.
If you enjoy flying with your husband you might consider buying a family aircraft.
There are a lot of pilots out there who's only marketable skill is flying. Many of them have degrees but in "Aviation" or "Aviation Management". In that case working the ramp is not an unreasonable option. For those of us with other more remunerative skills, it makes far more sense to use those skills to earn a living while continuing to fly and build up experience and contacts.
If you enjoy flying with your husband you might consider buying a family aircraft.
Re: When flying is your second career
Honest advice? Stay in the RCMP. Find a cushy spot you both can enjoy. Save money and buy an airplane. Fly for fun. Enjoy the hell out of the cozy GA scene in this country. Lots of great people in it. Forget about becoming a 'commercial pilot'. It is incredibly hard on relationships. Most don't withstand the first few years.. Anyways, should he continue to 'go for it'.. stop questioning the process and likening it to other industries..
The entry to mid level operators do not care about your degree or rcmp experience. They don't give a rats ass about how you got that licence to learn (thats all a bare commercial is)/Much like it did not care about mine in business management or my experience operating heavy equipment. Nor my friends engineering degrees or sales experience etc. There is no 'skipping' the line or budging the queue here. You start at the bottom. Plain and Simple.
There is an overabundance of people who 'love' flying and its their 'dream' to be an airline pilot that want those jobs. Will take those jobs and will undercut your husband any chance they can get to get flying. Its fairly cutthroat. If he has not researched the industry and the means in which it takes to garner the experience to hold a somewhat reasonable job in a somewhat reasonable place, then you're in for a world of hurt.
Great words spoken to me early on that bear repeating. "No one cares about what you're entitled to"
The bulk of entry jobs (other than the peanuts paying instructor jobs) are in places most people don't want to be, or are sketchy operations or work you incredibly hard. As sucky as it is, the ramp route isn't disappearing and the industry isn't coming up with new ways to get low time pilots flying. But be sure to pick the right one.. working the ramp for Jazz in victoria isn't going to get you flying. Northwright in norman wells? Tindi in yellowknife? Perimeter in thompson? Keewatin in the NU? Maybe Borek? Maybe some of the navajo and king air operators scattered across the northlands? Try those on for size. Be ready to take the pay hit too.. FO's make minimum wage while working tirelessly to the limits the government imposes on the operations.
If he wants to get into this game, you both need to understand the upcoming harsh realities of it. If you're serious about it, get one of those jobs and work for it. Support each other and seriously, ENJOY THE RIDE! As much as my first couple of jobs were rough, for me they were a great place for making life long friends, experiencing things no one else gets to and proving my worth in this industry. I look back fondly now on all of it. Sitting in the flight levels we don't talk about our airline experiences, we talk about the north, floats, people, and all the ridiculous things that happened to get us there..
The entry to mid level operators do not care about your degree or rcmp experience. They don't give a rats ass about how you got that licence to learn (thats all a bare commercial is)/Much like it did not care about mine in business management or my experience operating heavy equipment. Nor my friends engineering degrees or sales experience etc. There is no 'skipping' the line or budging the queue here. You start at the bottom. Plain and Simple.
There is an overabundance of people who 'love' flying and its their 'dream' to be an airline pilot that want those jobs. Will take those jobs and will undercut your husband any chance they can get to get flying. Its fairly cutthroat. If he has not researched the industry and the means in which it takes to garner the experience to hold a somewhat reasonable job in a somewhat reasonable place, then you're in for a world of hurt.
Great words spoken to me early on that bear repeating. "No one cares about what you're entitled to"
The bulk of entry jobs (other than the peanuts paying instructor jobs) are in places most people don't want to be, or are sketchy operations or work you incredibly hard. As sucky as it is, the ramp route isn't disappearing and the industry isn't coming up with new ways to get low time pilots flying. But be sure to pick the right one.. working the ramp for Jazz in victoria isn't going to get you flying. Northwright in norman wells? Tindi in yellowknife? Perimeter in thompson? Keewatin in the NU? Maybe Borek? Maybe some of the navajo and king air operators scattered across the northlands? Try those on for size. Be ready to take the pay hit too.. FO's make minimum wage while working tirelessly to the limits the government imposes on the operations.
If he wants to get into this game, you both need to understand the upcoming harsh realities of it. If you're serious about it, get one of those jobs and work for it. Support each other and seriously, ENJOY THE RIDE! As much as my first couple of jobs were rough, for me they were a great place for making life long friends, experiencing things no one else gets to and proving my worth in this industry. I look back fondly now on all of it. Sitting in the flight levels we don't talk about our airline experiences, we talk about the north, floats, people, and all the ridiculous things that happened to get us there..
Re: When flying is your second career
When I was in charge of hiring corporate pilots, I very much cared about degrees and RCMP experience. In fact we hired a pilot who had retired from the RCMP the previous year and the RCMP experience basically guaranteed an interview. The interview went well so we put him in the plane. He could fly the plane so he got the job. A 22 year old with the same low hours and no other experience would likely not have gotten an interview in the first place.
As for the comment on most relationships not lasting the first few years, perhaps it applies to young semi serious couples but I don't think it applies to mature minded married people. I cannot think of a single married couple that did not survive the first few years. Actually ran into one last week from our time together Rowdy and he's now happily at Westjet and his family is doing great.
Pilot_wife what matters most for getting a job in this industry is how many friends you have in it. If your husband has good people skills and can keep working his current well paid job while flying regularly and dropping off resumes regularly, I'm sure he will find a job without working on a ramp or office within a few years. I wouldn't quit a well paid job to work the ramp. I'll repeat though that it's about getting along well with the people who are in a position to help you. If his personality is more RCMP, perhaps getting in via a ramp job is not something to turn your nose up at.
As for the comment on most relationships not lasting the first few years, perhaps it applies to young semi serious couples but I don't think it applies to mature minded married people. I cannot think of a single married couple that did not survive the first few years. Actually ran into one last week from our time together Rowdy and he's now happily at Westjet and his family is doing great.
Pilot_wife what matters most for getting a job in this industry is how many friends you have in it. If your husband has good people skills and can keep working his current well paid job while flying regularly and dropping off resumes regularly, I'm sure he will find a job without working on a ramp or office within a few years. I wouldn't quit a well paid job to work the ramp. I'll repeat though that it's about getting along well with the people who are in a position to help you. If his personality is more RCMP, perhaps getting in via a ramp job is not something to turn your nose up at.
Re: When flying is your second career
That is a very accurate analysis.ahramin wrote:There's a difference between what people say and what the truth is. Places that hire on the ramp to test "work ethic" are actually testing something quite different. Will you do as you're told? Will you complain when things don't go as promised? Do we like you?
It is a situation that comes about due to a deficit in upper management skill in what are mostly pilot-owned small and medium carriers. It comes about as a result of that lack of skill manifesting itself in the inability to shape an employment position for the function that rampies do. That means creating a meaningful and reasonably paid job that has the potential for growth and greater reward from advancement in that line of service within the company. Or onto other positions or management.
Instead it is a position that young pilots are forced into with the carrot of getting a seat in the future. The work ethic is pure bullshit. It is basically a lie put out by people incapable of developing an HR function to a modern standard in a modern company.There is no point trying to put a pretty face on it. If it weren't so, other positions would also have the proviso that you should work in something other than your area of qualification before doing what you are qualified for, to prove some point that has no footing in any theory of human resource management.
This is almost entirely a prairie provinces, north of 60, and Ontario type of thing. I've never seen it advertised in BC, although I expect a few pilots are working the docks for HA. It's not advertised though, and I concede that working the docks can provide some very useful insight into flying floats. However, if you have the minimum 500 hours that HA requires, you probably have that insight already.
Anyways, well put, Ahramin.
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
Re: When flying is your second career
Your husband needs to look elsewhere - look at corporate where his security training is prized. Bill Gate's pilots were all Navy Seals or similar. One of my banker client's copilot was actually hired as his bodyguard and hadn't ever flown until then, he got a CL604 type.
Check out the Training Centres at Bombardier or CAE. FlightSafety.
Ramp work is necessary but not for pilots. It's only in Canada that flight training is not considered enough and my opinion, which will never change, is that unless you are actively being checked out while you are working the ramp, you are getting screwed.
Other than niche experience like your husband has, everyone starts at the bottom.
Actually, Rowdy's comments should be re-read.
Check out the Training Centres at Bombardier or CAE. FlightSafety.
Ramp work is necessary but not for pilots. It's only in Canada that flight training is not considered enough and my opinion, which will never change, is that unless you are actively being checked out while you are working the ramp, you are getting screwed.
Other than niche experience like your husband has, everyone starts at the bottom.
Actually, Rowdy's comments should be re-read.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: When flying is your second career
Degree or not, what I really need is a First Officer who can angle the deflector shields while I make the calculations for the jump to hyperspace.
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Re: When flying is your second career
If you want a real pilots wife view on on the pilots wife life - there's a Facebook page for pilot wives.
Warning! There may be some wives complining about their husbands' job on there...
Warning! There may be some wives complining about their husbands' job on there...
Everything's amazing right now, and nobody's happy.
- Louis CK
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Re: When flying is your second career
We already both work shift work and clearly they have never been the wife of a police officerJeppsOnFire wrote:If you want a real pilots wife view on on the pilots wife life - there's a Facebook page for pilot wives.
Warning! There may be some wives complining about their husbands' job on there...
Re: When flying is your second career
Since you edited your first post I can only guess at the question...
But doesn't the RCMP not hire members into their flight division anymore?
They had Pilatus, Caravans and a Piaggio last I remember, maybe a twin otter and king air too? Pretty sure it was crewed with a mix of civilian and police pilots...
But doesn't the RCMP not hire members into their flight division anymore?
They had Pilatus, Caravans and a Piaggio last I remember, maybe a twin otter and king air too? Pretty sure it was crewed with a mix of civilian and police pilots...
Re: When flying is your second career
i waxed lyrical to the tune of four paragraphs about how you were still in for a Big surprise but my voice would just be falling on deaf ears.
Good luck to you and your husband.
Good luck to you and your husband.
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Re: When flying is your second career
For some reason you believe that policing is a cushy job... do you think that things like PTSD are cushy. I don't think you understand the baggage that comes with policing and so many marriages don't last in policing. The divorce rate is one of the highest out there. We both work shift work now we've delt with a lot already aviation does not scare us. We will navigate it together and make it out where we want to be together.Rowdy wrote:i waxed lyrical to the tune of four paragraphs about how you were still in for a Big surprise but my voice would just be falling on deaf ears.
Good luck to you and your husband.
Re: When flying is your second career
Here here.
Great post Pilot_wife.
My son is RCMP and I have learned much about your profession since he became a member. He too is very keen on getting into aviation. Yes it is not easy...but I personally think it is worth it if that is ones desire.
Anyway, I've enjoyed the read on this thread and I wish you both the best no matter what you two decide.
ea306
Great post Pilot_wife.
My son is RCMP and I have learned much about your profession since he became a member. He too is very keen on getting into aviation. Yes it is not easy...but I personally think it is worth it if that is ones desire.
Anyway, I've enjoyed the read on this thread and I wish you both the best no matter what you two decide.
ea306
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Re: When flying is your second career
Most people don't even begin to understand the difficulties that come along with policing, especially the RCMP. Flying is totally worth it if it's your passion. My husband does have a huge passion for flying and aviation. He has always wanted to do it, just couldn't afford it out of high school. He's worked hard and come a long way in a short time so I have no doubt he will succeed.ea306 wrote:Here here.
Great post Pilot_wife.
My son is RCMP and I have learned much about your profession since he became a member. He too is very keen on getting into aviation. Yes it is not easy...but I personally think it is worth it if that is ones desire.
Anyway, I've enjoyed the read on this thread and I wish you both the best no matter what you two decide.
ea306
Re: When flying is your second career
As someone that suffers from PTSD after a fairly severe accident with an airplane.. I know exactly what it's like. I then made it worse flying medevac for a couple of years, not to mention previously being involved with heavy rescue. Watched multiple friends killed in the aviation industry over the last decade. A few whom I had spoken with mere hours before they met their maker. When I was younger my father told me this.. 'You will lose a lot of good friends in this industry'. At the time I was unaware just what that meant.
I also have close family members and good friends both with the rcmp and with local city/municipal forces. I understand there are challenges, but the ones you will soon face are very different. Judging by the original post and these subsequent ones you are ignoring or brushing them off..
I'm not trying to dissuade you from supporting your husband or challenge his want to move into this industry. I'm simply trying to showcase that the grass is NOT greener and I hope you take the comments made to heart.
It certainly is a bright year in canadian aviation though, which may make it easier
I also have close family members and good friends both with the rcmp and with local city/municipal forces. I understand there are challenges, but the ones you will soon face are very different. Judging by the original post and these subsequent ones you are ignoring or brushing them off..
I'm not trying to dissuade you from supporting your husband or challenge his want to move into this industry. I'm simply trying to showcase that the grass is NOT greener and I hope you take the comments made to heart.
It certainly is a bright year in canadian aviation though, which may make it easier
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Re: When flying is your second career
Hi Rowdy, sorry to hear about your experiences regarding PTSD. Thank you for taking the time to share your experience in the industry and offer advice. It certainly sounds like this career has its share of challenges. Again, thanks for taking the time to post and we'll definitely use the forum for advice as things change or progress.
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Re: When flying is your second career
Pilot_Wife...I am the future version of your husband, depending on how much time you have on. (Except in the helicopter world.)
I had always wanted to fly growing up, but alas, they told me in high school my math wasn't strong enough. I joined the police right out of high school, literally, they called my second day of grade 13 when I was 18 years old and I was offered a job in a program that now no longer exists. But this disease called aviation never left me. Then I found out I actually was good enough at math....because I'd been using collision investigation formula's for years, and they were way more complex.
The reality is you have to have a very understanding spouse. Since you're on here posting and fighting for what he wants, I think that's covered. The next reality is to be viable in aviation you have to spend money. Being in the profession you're both in if you're willing to take the hit now it "can" pay off down the road. Don't cheap out, that will catch up with you in the end. On the fixed wing side you'll need commercial multi-IFR at minimum to have any sort of shot, more money. I suggest you look into whether the Mounties have a program for partial reimbursement of post-secondary education and if this would qualify. Because that's exactly what it is, a career path. A good placeholder/time builder could be to instruct on days off if there is a school near you. I was never an instructor, but I know they aren't in it for the pay. But have also worked with officers who instructed on the fixed wing side that have since left policing and are now flying for airlines.
No one cares if you're a cop, and to be quite honest I never tell them until after I've known them quite a while and usually at the end of my tour. The people who are my friends in aviation have been asked to keep it to themselves because rightly or wrongly (likely rightly) there is a preconceived notion that you're only there because of profession number one. You have to prove yourself as a pilot, and professional, end of story.
In my case I started off doing rides or quick jobs of a day or two. I progressed to a couple weeks at a time off in the middle of nowhere doing fires or surveys (say goodbye to a great deal of holiday time together). It's paid off for me, but it took a lot of lifting barrels, swatting bugs, and waiting around in literally the middle of nowhere.
For me has it been worth it? Absolutely. But I have seen others that have tried it and failed and be left with debt. I have warned people off (just like I was), and they haven't listened (but I didn't either).
You need to have the conversation about what you'll do if the journey is a success, or if it's a failure. You have careers already that can mitigate any failure, most people don't. You can also turn your current career into a positive by seeking out northern postings with float companies that have a tough time keeping pilots. Especially pilots that can (or want to) stick around for a couple years. Good luck to both of you.
I had always wanted to fly growing up, but alas, they told me in high school my math wasn't strong enough. I joined the police right out of high school, literally, they called my second day of grade 13 when I was 18 years old and I was offered a job in a program that now no longer exists. But this disease called aviation never left me. Then I found out I actually was good enough at math....because I'd been using collision investigation formula's for years, and they were way more complex.
The reality is you have to have a very understanding spouse. Since you're on here posting and fighting for what he wants, I think that's covered. The next reality is to be viable in aviation you have to spend money. Being in the profession you're both in if you're willing to take the hit now it "can" pay off down the road. Don't cheap out, that will catch up with you in the end. On the fixed wing side you'll need commercial multi-IFR at minimum to have any sort of shot, more money. I suggest you look into whether the Mounties have a program for partial reimbursement of post-secondary education and if this would qualify. Because that's exactly what it is, a career path. A good placeholder/time builder could be to instruct on days off if there is a school near you. I was never an instructor, but I know they aren't in it for the pay. But have also worked with officers who instructed on the fixed wing side that have since left policing and are now flying for airlines.
No one cares if you're a cop, and to be quite honest I never tell them until after I've known them quite a while and usually at the end of my tour. The people who are my friends in aviation have been asked to keep it to themselves because rightly or wrongly (likely rightly) there is a preconceived notion that you're only there because of profession number one. You have to prove yourself as a pilot, and professional, end of story.
In my case I started off doing rides or quick jobs of a day or two. I progressed to a couple weeks at a time off in the middle of nowhere doing fires or surveys (say goodbye to a great deal of holiday time together). It's paid off for me, but it took a lot of lifting barrels, swatting bugs, and waiting around in literally the middle of nowhere.
For me has it been worth it? Absolutely. But I have seen others that have tried it and failed and be left with debt. I have warned people off (just like I was), and they haven't listened (but I didn't either).
You need to have the conversation about what you'll do if the journey is a success, or if it's a failure. You have careers already that can mitigate any failure, most people don't. You can also turn your current career into a positive by seeking out northern postings with float companies that have a tough time keeping pilots. Especially pilots that can (or want to) stick around for a couple years. Good luck to both of you.