In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

golden hawk
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 679
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:43 am

In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by golden hawk »

---------- ADS -----------
  

Heliian
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1674
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:14 pm

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by Heliian »

They are just trying to come up with some ways to make some money.

If you build it, they won't come. See Mirabel.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Cessna 180
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:28 pm
Location: YKF

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by Cessna 180 »

Why not just expand the YKF airport (10k foot 8-26, 7k foot 14-32), build a larger terminal on the north side of the airport, add another ILS? The land is there (would need to take some land from the turf farm off shantz station), the airport is there with a new tower being built, and its near a fairly major city center of KW/Cambridge/Guelph. If they had better routes than just westjet to calgary and (now defunct) american to chicago, you would probably see passenger loads increased. Add a few flights to montreal and ottawa a day, maybe NYC, and don't charge significantly more than YYZ prices and that airport could boom. Would take off a lot of load from YYZ.

I understand things like ticket prices are a bit harder for the airport authority to control, and I'm not one for subsidizing flights, but the money that would go to building an airport thats pretty significantly out of the city could be better allocated to the far less expensive task of upgrading an existing airport thats very close to a large urban airport in southern ontario. I'm sure with the right flights going to airports where you can get easy connections would allow the airport to boom.

To add to this, upgrading the 8-26 runway to 10k feet isn't super necessary anyways. start with building a new terminal and encouraging airlines (WJ, AC, American) to add more destinations. It could also be the perfect airport to encourage Southwest to dip into the Canadian market if the airport worked with them on landing fees, passenger fees, ect. People in southern ontario go out of there way to BUF, DTW, ect, to use them.
---------- ADS -----------
  

DanJ
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by DanJ »

Cessna 180 wrote:Why not just expand the YKF airport (10k foot 8-26, 7k foot 14-32), build a larger terminal on the north side of the airport, add another ILS? The land is there (would need to take some land from the turf farm off shantz station), the airport is there with a new tower being built, and its near a fairly major city center of KW/Cambridge/Guelph. If they had better routes than just westjet to calgary and (now defunct) american to chicago, you would probably see passenger loads increased. Add a few flights to montreal and ottawa a day, maybe NYC, and don't charge significantly more than YYZ prices and that airport could boom. Would take off a lot of load from YYZ.

I understand things like ticket prices are a bit harder for the airport authority to control, and I'm not one for subsidizing flights, but the money that would go to building an airport thats pretty significantly out of the city could be better allocated to the far less expensive task of upgrading an existing airport thats very close to a large urban airport in southern ontario. I'm sure with the right flights going to airports where you can get easy connections would allow the airport to boom.

To add to this, upgrading the 8-26 runway to 10k feet isn't super necessary anyways. start with building a new terminal and encouraging airlines (WJ, AC, American) to add more destinations. It could also be the perfect airport to encourage Southwest to dip into the Canadian market if the airport worked with them on landing fees, passenger fees, ect. People in southern ontario go out of there way to BUF, DTW, ect, to use them.
I guess because you don't have the whole of Metro Toronto between YYZ and YKF?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Braaaap
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:58 am

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by Braaaap »

Cessna 180 wrote:Why not just expand the YKF airport (10k foot 8-26, 7k foot 14-32), build a larger terminal on the north side of the airport, add another ILS? The land is there (would need to take some land from the turf farm off shantz station), the airport is there with a new tower being built, and its near a fairly major city center of KW/Cambridge/Guelph. If they had better routes than just westjet to calgary and (now defunct) american to chicago, you would probably see passenger loads increased. Add a few flights to montreal and ottawa a day, maybe NYC, and don't charge significantly more than YYZ prices and that airport could boom. Would take off a lot of load from YYZ.

I understand things like ticket prices are a bit harder for the airport authority to control, and I'm not one for subsidizing flights, but the money that would go to building an airport thats pretty significantly out of the city could be better allocated to the far less expensive task of upgrading an existing airport thats very close to a large urban airport in southern ontario. I'm sure with the right flights going to airports where you can get easy connections would allow the airport to boom.

To add to this, upgrading the 8-26 runway to 10k feet isn't super necessary anyways. start with building a new terminal and encouraging airlines (WJ, AC, American) to add more destinations. It could also be the perfect airport to encourage Southwest to dip into the Canadian market if the airport worked with them on landing fees, passenger fees, ect. People in southern ontario go out of there way to BUF, DTW, ect, to use them.
I think I heard American just pulled the plug on their Chicago route. Step in the opposite direction, but I agree with you.
---------- ADS -----------
  

fleet16b
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1118
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:49 am
Location: aerodrome of democracy

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by fleet16b »

They should just expand Hamilton YHM like they had planned to years ago
That airport has never fully been used to its potential
---------- ADS -----------
  
...isn't he the best pilot you've ever seen?....Yeah he is ....except when I'm shaving.........

YQLRookie
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:48 am
Location: CYQL

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by YQLRookie »

Cessna 180 wrote:Why not just expand the YKF airport (10k foot 8-26, 7k foot 14-32), build a larger terminal on the north side of the airport, add another ILS? The land is there (would need to take some land from the turf farm off shantz station), the airport is there with a new tower being built, and its near a fairly major city center of KW/Cambridge/Guelph. If they had better routes than just westjet to calgary and (now defunct) american to chicago, you would probably see passenger loads increased. Add a few flights to montreal and ottawa a day, maybe NYC, and don't charge significantly more than YYZ prices and that airport could boom. Would take off a lot of load from YYZ.
The Region of Waterloo International Airport is currently in the process of updating their master plan, they hosted a public consultation session recently. Their growth approach is similar to what you've outlined, with specific actions based on triggers.
- With the approval of the plan in the spring, work is to commence on getting the zoning prepared for extensions to 08-26 and 14-32
- When 250,000 annual passengers are reached, both runways are to be lengthened (08-26 to 8700') and the terminal is to be expanded

Additional triggers exist, again dependent on annual passenger counts. So it seems like the plan is to increase passenger numbers before commencing any hard expansion work. While a few of the maps designated land north of 08-26 for a terminal, the trigger diagrams call for expansions of the existing terminal. http://www.waterlooairport.ca/en/aboutt ... s-AODA.pdf
---------- ADS -----------
  

DanJ
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by DanJ »

Sorry to butt in again, but isn't the idea of Pickering to draw traffic from the eastern part of the GTA as well as cities further east? Kitchener and Hamilton would just compete with YYZ, not complement it. People from the west side of Toronto aren't going to drive past their own airport to YKF or YHM and people from the east certainly aren't going to add an hour to an already tough commute to YYZ. As for the Mirabel comparison. Maybe if the Greater Montreal area had grown like the Greater Toronto area and the airport was built near, say Terrabonne, or somewhere out that way, it might have worked.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
I WAS Birddog
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 361
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:38 am
Location: dude...I just walk the earth.
Contact:

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by I WAS Birddog »

They should start by building a $300K observation tower in a near by town...like Owen Sound.

:smt104
---------- ADS -----------
  
Before you plot your revenge on someone, make sure to dig two graveyard plots.
http://twitter.com/@iwasbirddog

ShawnR
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:28 am

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by ShawnR »

This is an old thread but an article in the April COPA magazine prompted me to ask here. I am not a commercial pilot nor landed in Toronto area. (Hamilton and Burlington and Guelph, briefly yes)
If the reason to build a new airport is to relieve congestion at Pearson, why not utilize Buttonville or Downsview? I see from the CFS that Buttonville might be too short (3900') to be practical but Downsview still has infrastructure and a 7000 foot runway. Rather than starting from ground up, by moving smaller plane traffic to these airports, could pressure not be relieved from Pearson? I am not an IFR guy at all so pardon me if that is such a factor that it is a dumb question. Up here in YQT, I hear the term "delays due to flow control in Toronto " and the recent article gave me some insight. We have airports shuttered or being shuttered nearby so I am asking why that is. Surely some upgrades to those could make them viable? Moving ground transportation away from Pearson would not hurt either, imho. What would be the smallest planes that might use Pearson? Surely many could use smaller airports?
Or maybe the simplest answer is that Buttonville and Downsview are just too close to Pearson?

Thanks
Shawn
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3143
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by PilotDAR »

Downsview would have always been a wonderful choice, particularly being on the subway line. However, civil traffic was never welcomed there, and purposefully excluded by the fact that Downsview was/is a military base, and deHavilland/Bombardier it's sore user. I flew in and out for years when I worked for Bombardier, though special insurance and permission was required. A major detractor for Downsview is that it lies under the approach paths for YYZ, so a normal traffic pattern around Downsview is not harmonious with YYZ. And, noise would now be a big issue - too much city around it. And, for singles, a little un nerving, few places to go if you have an engine failure. Downsview has given up runways over the years, and will never become commercial.

Buttonville will plod along for a few years yet, though never expand, nor become viable for any commercial operation. Same thing about city all around, if you have an engine problem around Buttonville, there are few choices. When I first flew there, it was ideal, and it was mostly surrounded by fields, who di not care about noise, nor forced landings in them, not so any more.

98% of the population could care less that there be convenient airports around. They only think airport when they are annoyed by noise, or want to fly south in the winter. So those of us who like airports are a severe minority, and can hardly bear the cost of the infrastructure we would like to fly from. So, thanks to the forward thinkers, who put Lake Simcoe Regional, back when they could, it will become commercial and off load YYZ a little. As for Pickering, we'll see what the demand will be...
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7635
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by photofly »

Which airports are shuttered or being shuttered?

Downsview is owned by Bombardier; they will want the most money for it, which they will get by turning it into housing. Also it's very close to Pearson so coordinating approaching and departing aircraft would be a nightmare.

Buttonville already is a reliever for Pearson, or it was, until its very small subsidy was pulled, which led to the whole "let's turn it into housing" debacle.

It's unlikely in the present climate there will be much appetite or call for airport expansion; not for a few years, anyway.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

User avatar
valleyboy
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by valleyboy »

I think they need build it away from Toronto and away from productive agricultural land. Look at Oslo, get it out there, supply hi speed transport and reduce the number of extra people flooding the terminal for aunt minnie.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ctmorawetz
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:42 pm

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by ctmorawetz »

photofly wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:25 am
Which airports are shuttered or being shuttered?

Downsview is owned by Bombardier; they will want the most money for it, which they will get by turning it into housing. Also it's very close to Pearson so coordinating approaching and departing aircraft would be a nightmare.

Buttonville already is a reliever for Pearson, or it was, until its very small subsidy was pulled, which led to the whole "let's turn it into housing" debacle.

It's unlikely in the present climate there will be much appetite or call for airport expansion; not for a few years, anyway.
Downsview has already been sold to a developer. The deal allows Bombardier to use Downsview until 2023, at which time it'll be developed. Bombardier is building a plant at YYZ for the Global program and once it is complete, they will leave Downsview completely. The Q400 program is owned by Longview Aviation now.

As for Buttonville, it's back on the market, so you never know! If Cadillac Fairview can't develop it; I don't know who can.

Neither is suitable as a substitution for Pickering though. If Pickering is going to replace Downsview, Buttonville and likely Oshawa (after 2047) then they need to start with a clean sheet design.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Keep your stick on the ice - Red Green

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7635
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by photofly »

A high speed rail link could get passengers from Toronto to CYHM in 25 minutes.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

ShawnR
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:28 am

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by ShawnR »

photofly wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:25 am
Which airports are shuttered or being shuttered?

Sorry. I did not word that very well. Not local to YQT, I was referring to the changes at Buttonville and Downsview. Maybe shutter was the wrong word.
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7635
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by photofly »

ShawnR wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:57 am
photofly wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:25 am
Which airports are shuttered or being shuttered?

Sorry. I did not word that very well. Not local to YQT, I was referring to the changes at Buttonville and Downsview. Maybe shutter was the wrong word.
CYQT is Thunder Bay, and Buttonville and Downsview are in Toronto... I'm not making the connection.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

ShawnR
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:28 am

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by ShawnR »

photofly wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:10 am
ShawnR wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:57 am
photofly wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:25 am
Which airports are shuttered or being shuttered?

Sorry. I did not word that very well. Not local to YQT, I was referring to the changes at Buttonville and Downsview. Maybe shutter was the wrong word.
CYQT is Thunder Bay, and Buttonville and Downsview are in Toronto... I'm not making the connection.
In my original post, I mentioned local airports being shuttered. Then you asked which ones are being shuttered. I interpreted the situation with Buttonville and Downsview as "being shuttered", maybe not the right interpretation. So when you asked which onces, I thought you were asking if some around YQT were being shuttered.....

My post was just asking for clarification as to why there are airports in Southern Ontario that are being....decommisioned or not being fully utilized and yet some want to build another. I think the input you and others have given me helps clear it up. Thank you.
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7635
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by photofly »

Buttonville and Downsview aren't big enough or in the right places; Pickering is/was supposed to be much larger than either.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

J31
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1069
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 7:21 am

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by J31 »

photofly wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:50 am
A high speed rail link could get passengers from Toronto to CYHM in 25 minutes.
If the present management of Hamilton airport continues there will never be enough traffic to finance a high speed rail.

Lack of infrastructure and no commitment to build it has hampered passenger traffic in and out of YHM for decades.
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7635
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by photofly »

If they built a high-speed monorail link from airside at YYZ to airside at YHM, you could think of it as a YYZ ramp expansion. However long it took it would still be quicker than getting to most of the gates at Heathrow Terminal 2.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4538
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by pelmet »

I have an idea....

Expropriate housing/buildings near YYZ and build more runways....kinda the way Atlanta is.

expensive....not as much as a new airport.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
valleyboy
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by valleyboy »

I have an idea....

Expropriate housing/buildings near YYZ and build more runways....kinda the way Atlanta is.

expensive....not as much as a new airport.
I'll go one better, expropriate the whole GTA and move it north of Sudbury and give the most productive farm land in the world back to the farmers. :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7635
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by photofly »

They need more gates and taxiways, not runways
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1749
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: In ‘stunning’ reversal, Pickering is asking for airport to be expedited

Post by rookiepilot »

Pickering not needed. YYZ already has planned new taxiways and 05R / 23 L at the north end.

What is needed is true high speed rail from union to yyz and onward to Guelph /Kitchener / London.

There are plans for that but Ford shelved it.

Perhaps a branch to the east too.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”