Heliian wrote:
These are a replacement for the buffalo. Other than the super STOL capabilities of the buffalo, the 295 outperforms it in all aspects. I can't stand up in a buffalo either.
These are NOT a replacement for just the Buffalo, they will be replacing more C-130's than DHC-5's.
You must be pretty tall if you can't stand up in a Buffalo. Height from the floor to the bottom of the center wing box is 78" the height in the rest of the cabin area is 82". I'm 6'3" and have no problems with clearance even in my boots and helmet.
When the C-295 toured the Canadian SAR bases several years ago the one common complaint from virtually everyone that stepped on board was that the cabin height was way too short and that no one but the most vertically challenged SAR Techs and FE's are able to stand up in it. Going to make their jobs a lot more difficult and uncomfortable and therefore fatiguing.
Just another purely political buy, par for the course.
sstaurus wrote:So for the uneducated, why were new Buffaloes rejected? Just lack of pressurization and new engines?
And will the existing Hercs still fly or is this Airbus supposed to replace both?
One of the requirements for the new FWSAR aircraft was that it had be be certified by the time of the contract award. Viking's proposal exists only on paper so it didn't meet the requirement.
The C-295 will be replacing all 6 remaining Buffalo's and the C-130 currently used for SAR.
Hopefully I can get a used buffalo cheap when they retire them. One of my favourite aircraft, IMO the most under acknowledged plane ever. Put that badboy on floats.
I saw one perform at that Twin Lakes strip out west of Williams Lake. Awesome capability.
Hopefully I can get a used buffalo cheap when they retire them. One of my favourite aircraft, IMO the most under acknowledged plane ever. Put that badboy on floats.
I saw one perform at that Twin Lakes strip out west of Williams Lake. Awesome capability.
Out of curiosity - when was that?
1981 or 82. It was a tripacer grossly overloaded with 4 large adults in it. They took off southbound and settled into the water off the end. The pilot died swimming to shore, and while the Buf took the survivors to YWL we transported the deceased.
The thing to keep in mind with the buffalo's super STOL, is that too my knowledge, it has never been used in a rescue. That's what helicopters are for. so loosing the ability to land in 800' isn't really a big deal, I still think the Herc was the only aircraft that could successfully meet all the requirements.
The purchase shows the growing importance of industrial benefits in Canadian procurement decisions, according to Richard Shimooka, a research fellow at the Ottawa-based Conference of Defence Associations Institute. The criteria allowed the C295 to win despite concerns over its performance, Shimooka said. “This aircraft likely won certainly on cost, but also certainly the value proposition,” ”
Canada’s search-and-rescue procurement process began over a decade ago. The race was said to have narrowed to a contest between Airbus and the Leonardo-led consortium’s C-27J Spartan. Embraer also submitted a bid. “In the original procurement, the C-27J was a clearly more effective aircraft,” for the Canadian Forces, Shimooka said. With the C295, “there’s higher risk involved.”
More important to get votes in key ridings by pork barrel politics than picking the right equipment to save lives. I'm not surprised, just disappointed that something as critical as this mission would be used as a political pawn. It's shameless and completely indefensible.
Gannet167 wrote:
More important to get votes in key ridings by pork barrel politics than picking the right equipment to save lives. I'm not surprised, just disappointed that something as critical as this mission would be used as a political pawn. It's shameless and completely indefensible.
Welcome to the Canadian military, where we are only thought of when there's a political play involved.
Gannet167 wrote:
More important to get votes in key ridings by pork barrel politics than picking the right equipment to save lives. I'm not surprised, just disappointed that something as critical as this mission would be used as a political pawn. It's shameless and completely indefensible.
Welcome to the Canadian military, where we are only thought of when there's a political play involved.
Sadly the list of politicized and pork barrelled military procurement decisions is "long but distinguished".
Airbus search plane contract faces court challenge from losing bidder
Leonardo S.p.A. says decision to award rival Airbus the $4.7B contract should be tossed out
By Murray Brewster, CBC News Posted: Feb 22, 2017 8:00 PM ET Last Updated: Feb 23, 2017 7:26 AM ET
The Airbus C-295 transport plane has been chosen to replace the RCAF's nearly 50-year-old C-115 Buffalo fixed-wing search and rescue plane. (Airbus)
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Murray Brewster
Defence and security
Murray Brewster is senior defence writer for CBC News, based in Ottawa. He has covered the Canadian military and foreign policy from Parliament Hill for over a decade. Among other assignments, he spent a total of 15 months on the ground covering the Afghan war for The Canadian Press. Prior to that, he covered defence issues and politics for CP in Nova Scotia for 11 years and was bureau chief for
The losing bidder in the race to replace Canada's fixed-wing search and rescue fleet is asking a Federal Court judge to toss out the multibillion-dollar contract, CBC News has learned.
Leonardo S.p.A., which offered its C-27J transport for the competition, filed notice of legal action in January, but only delivered supporting arguments and affidavits to the court on Tuesday.
The company is challenging the Liberal government's decision last fall to buy 16 new C-295W transports manufactured by rival Airbus Defence and Space.
The Italian aircraft-maker says the bid by Airbus should be disqualified and the court should cancel the contract.
The company cites a number of grounds, including a claim the C-295W does not meet the specifications originally set out by the Royal Canadian Air Force, notably the ability to "perform mandatory long-range missions stipulated" in the request for proposals. Leonardo's court filing also raises alleged safety concerns related to the absence of a redundant power system in the aircraft.
"The necessary consequences of this inadequacy should have been the disqualification (if no modification was proposed) or rating penalization (if a modification was proposed) of the Airbus proposal," said the filing. 'A decision has been made and it's a really good thing for Canadians.'
Separately, Leonardo argues that the Airbus bid should have been disqualified at the outset because of cost.
In late November, the Liberal government announced it was buying the C-295 in a two-step procurement for a total price of $4.7 billion over the next two decades.
The first step — at a cost of $2.4 billion — involves the purchase of aircraft, simulators and 11 years of support.
The second step involves a future in-service support program that will have to be negotiated with Airbus, at an estimated cost of $2.3 billion.
However, in the request for proposals, which was filed in court as part of the supporting documents, all bidders were told their package could not exceed $3.4 billion, including in-service maintenance support.
Silence from Public Works
Officials with Leonardo have sought an explanation from Public Works, but have been met with silence, said a source familiar with the file, but who was not authorized to speak with the media.
"The applicant's proposal to supply Canada with FWSAR aircraft and related services … was evaluated as being fully compliant with the requirements of the (request for proposals) and substantially less costly than the aircraft and services proposed by Airbus," the court filing said.
Federal lawyers have indicated the government intends to fight the claim, but has not filed a statement of defence.
The announcement last December by Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan, Public Works Minister Judy Foote and the commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force, Lt.-Gen. Michael Hood, was supposed to end a frustrating 12-year procurement odyssey that spanned three governments.
Defence Minister Harjit Singh Sajjan says he is confident the appropriate steps were followed in the procurement process and doesn't see any need for further delay. (Sean Kilpatrick/Canadian Press)
It was former prime minister Paul Martin's Liberal government in 2004 that first proposed replacing the fleet.
The former Conservative government, which put the program on hold over allegations the air force had calibrated the specifications in favour of Leonardo's C-27J, eventually asked the National Research Council to evaluate the requirements. The Air Bus C-295, which is in service in 15 countries, is supposed to speed along the retirement of the air force's nearly 50-year-old C-115 Buffalos and older model C-130 Hercules transports, which were assigned to search and rescue duties a number of years ago.
The government said last fall that the first C-295 is expected on the tarmac in 2019, with the final delivery slated for 2022.
It is unclear how the court challenge will affect that timetable.
Sajjan defended the government's choice late Wednesday, saying he's confident the appropriate steps were followed and doesn't see any need for a delay.
"A decision has been made and it's a really good thing for Canadians," Sajjan told CBC News. "If somebody has any concerns about that decision they have the right to be able to have a look at that decision and use the various processes within our court system." He described the C-295 as a "game-changer" for the air force.
The good old Buff just isn't capable of meeting the requirements. STOL is great, it just doesn't really matter as much as range, speed and payload. There's a reason the Herc still does SAR in Winnipeg, Trenton and Greenwood and the Buff is relegated to the west coast only. The Buff can't do the job.
Leonardo likely can make a good case for a lawsuit. This procurement was not done according to the "get the best equipment at the lowest price" concept that it's supposed to. The C295 doesn't even meet the government's own minimum specs. the procurement process that "protects the military, literally, from themselves" is so obviously political that they likely have a good legal argument.
Someone should protect us from the procurement process.
I love the Buffalo, it's one of the coolest ships DeHavilland made, like a giant Twin Otter in most respects. But "search and rescue" isn't done by bush-planes anymore. You could put together a pretty crack squad with a couple Buffalos and a small fleet of Twin Otters on seasonal off-strip gear, but they'd have to have bases all over the country in order for these short-range planes to have decent coverage. And at the end of the day, once the missing people are found, they'd still be better off if a helicopter or some SAR tech jumpers were there instead of an aeroplane which, regardless of short-field ability or landing gear type, would still have to go find somewhere to land, which, unless you were very lucky, would not be where you crashed.
Of course you could have SAR techs aboard a Buffalo or Twin Otter easily enough, and maybe leaping out of a plane that can slow down to 90 knots or less would be great, I don't know, but like I say there would have to be bases peppered all over the country.
I lament the Canadian Forces losing their fleet of awesome bush-planes too, but bush-planes just aren't much good for anything these days. Other than hauling freight in the bush, of course. But the Canadian Forces aren't doing that.
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If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
I wonder if airbus recycled the famous brown envelope they slid to Mulroney? A culture of kleptocracy and incompetence. Federal bureaucrats stealing since 1867. Happy 150 everyone.
Gannet167 wrote:
More important to get votes in key ridings by pork barrel politics than picking the right equipment to save lives. I'm not surprised, just disappointed that something as critical as this mission would be used as a political pawn. It's shameless and completely indefensible.
Welcome to the Canadian military, where we are only thought of when there's a political play involved.
Sadly the list of politicized and pork barrelled military procurement decisions is "long but distinguished".
