NewLeaf cancels service and blames the other airlines for undercutting

[PostmasterGeneral]

Can someone please copy and paste the article? Can't do it on my phone.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 7874840501

NewLeaf CEO blames other airlines for undercutting them on their YYC-PHX route and having to refund tickets.

And so it begins...

[timel]

I think we should start a GoFundMe so that they can afford their ultra low cost operation.

What did they expect? Red carpet?

[Rookie50]

I can easily believe the bigger players wanted to squish anyone new. We see this everywhere in the socialist paradise called Canada. The government seems to be fine with favouring the former Government air - and Team Teal -- though beloved AC sure tried to kill them off too -- through slot allocations and allowing predatory pricing.

There is no doubt Porter would never have survived if their slots at YTZ weren't protected by the TPA, only when Porter became successful at an airport AC totally ignored, did they run and cry about how unfair it was they couldn't change their minds and grab all the slots. TPA quite rightly told the whiners to get lost.

I believe in competition, and like in other industries where Canada had to force the incumbents to play ball -- like Telecom where they were forced to allow access to smaller players -- the incumbents play dirty here to squeeze out new players. They should have a strong slap on the knuckles to prevent that.

They don't own the slots. Some should be stripped away for any new competitors who want them, for example. No whining, please.

Disagree the Govt should help new players? Hypocrisy I say, AC's latest bleed of the taxpayer only came in 2009.

I don't hate AC, but sure don't respect a whiny, predatory business attitude.

[URC]

The government seems to be fine with favouring the former Government air - and Team Teal

Right, the same government that recently made foreign ownership exceptions for only two "Canadian" airline companies ? And they weren't Air Canada or WestJet.

Maybe Newleaf Flair should work on getting their domestic operations working first ?

"A bunch of Albertans are not too pleased with travel company NewLeaf after spending New Year's Eve at the Abbotsford Airport. A passenger rights advocate says airline operator, Flair Air could be in breach of its contract. Kim Smith explains."

http://globalnews.ca/news/3155654/disco ... years-eve/

[timel]

One of my sibbling pays 17 Euros/month for his mobile service in Europe, he gets 50 gb of data and unlimited calls to North Amercica, Japan and many more countries. Is there space for cheaper services in Canada? I am pretty sure they have much more margin than airlines, but we are a big country with very little population.

Like Mr. Young seems to be saying, in Canada we have challenging and expensive winters. The profit left on a 23% ticket price reduction can easily vanish when you get recurent snow storms and freezing rain. Unlike Ryanair, I doubt NewLeaf will benefit from various European subventions and I don't see why the actual airlines would let their seats, so that some airline can undercut everyone's profits, which are by the way slim. Sometimes good, sometimes not good.

If NewLeaf would be coming with some new airline concept, interesting airline philosophy - no bottom barrel drinking Kool-aid, maybe I would be more sympathetic. Unfortunately, history shows that those great "ultra low cost" business plans seem to be coming at the expense of the employees and the rest of this industry.

[Black_Tusk]

I can easily believe the bigger players wanted to squish anyone new. We see this everywhere in the socialist paradise called Canada.

I think you're mistaken with something called the "free market".

I believe in competition, and like in other industries where Canada had to force the incumbents to play ball -- like Telecom where they were forced to allow access to smaller players -- the incumbents play dirty here to squeeze out new players. They should have a strong slap on the knuckles to prevent that.

They don't own the slots. Some should be stripped away for any new competitors who want them, for example. No whining, please.

Wait a minute. First you go and complain about "Socialist Canada" when in fact you are talking about how the free market works, and then go on to say Canada should enforce the larger carriers to "play ball" and enact more regulations?

The more I read your posts the more I think you're just a troll.

You really need to get a hobby.

[bezerker]

URC,

I was booked on WJ from YXX New Years Eve. Flight was cancelled and I had to stay the night on my own dime. No explanation given.

Should WJ be working on getting their domestic operations working also?

[CpnCrunch]

URC,

I was booked on WJ from YXX New Years Eve. Flight was cancelled and I had to stay the night on my own dime. No explanation given.

Should WJ be working on getting their domestic operations working also?

Sounds like YXX was a bit of a gong show on new year's eve. YVR wasn't much better, as it took them over an hour to clear the snow from one runway (WTF, it was an inch of slushy snow!?), and there was a backlog of about 10 planes waiting to take off on the other runway stretching all the way to the terminal. There were quite a few AC flights cancelled that night.

Still, I'd trust AC or WJ a lot more to get me to my destination than Newleaf. They cancelled their YYJ service a while ago, but are saying they might bring it back during the summer. How can you trust a company that might randomly decide to cancel the route you've booked?

[Rookie50]

I can easily believe the bigger players wanted to squish anyone new. We see this everywhere in the socialist paradise called Canada.

I think you're mistaken with something called the "free market".

I believe in competition, and like in other industries where Canada had to force the incumbents to play ball -- like Telecom where they were forced to allow access to smaller players -- the incumbents play dirty here to squeeze out new players. They should have a strong slap on the knuckles to prevent that.

They don't own the slots. Some should be stripped away for any new competitors who want them, for example. No whining, please.

Wait a minute. First you go and complain about "Socialist Canada" when in fact you are talking about how the free market works, and then go on to say Canada should enforce the larger carriers to "play ball" and enact more regulations?

The more I read your posts the more I think you're just a troll.

You really need to get a hobby.

Cause I'm no cheerleader? Sorry.

I don't see the point in debating with Air Canada apologists. This isn't an AC PR board. I'm simply sick of having them touch my money every 10 years or less.

A simple question, why are others allowed to go bankrupt and cease operations, like smaller startups, but not the poltically connected like AC and Bombardier?

Sick of the attitude in this country.

[AuxBatOn]

Rookie50,

Feel free to emigrate to your beloved USA and establish yourself there is you aren't happy in Canada.

[Rookie50]

Many, many of what I would consider my peers have done just that, Nark, because they can't conduct business here under free market terms.

Isn't that a problem, not with them but the country, Nark? Who creates the jobs? The Government?


I love this country but have serious concerns where it's going.

This thread is a example of what's wrong with this country.

Legitmate criticism of the horrible productivity, protectionism from competition, and lack of any free enterprise thought or spirit that this country has now, is simply called "trolling".

We should be encouraging start ups like New Leaf, flawed as they might be, as policy. Instead, everyone mocks and tries to kill them off.

The whole country is a university campus. Ministry of Truth thought control, and don't anyone dare criticize us.

This is trolling? Call it what you wish. I'll leave you all to it. It's tragic to me, what's happening.

[timel]

Legitmate criticism of the horrible productivity, protectionism from competition, and lack of any free enterprise thought or spirit that this country has now, is simply called "trolling".

I don't know if you have seen a recent roster at Jazz, they look very productive to me. We have the worst rest duty regulations in the world, to me airlines are very free from regulations in this country.

We should be encouraging start ups like New Leaf, flawed as they might be, as policy. Instead, everyone mocks and tries to kill them off.

Encouraging start ups, you mean subventions? Subventions isn't free market. Allocating slots to only one airline (what New Leaf wants) isn't free market. Unless New Leaf gets a lot of government money or private investment from risk funds, they will have a hard time breaking through. Also, funny you are blaming the lack of "free market", but like someone else pointed out, foreign ownership change of regulations weren't done for the benefit of AC and WJ.

[calgaryguy]

Lack of crews and airplanes and poor management from what I heard. Timed with Flairs union vote?

Heard through a friend they had over 75% sign union cards.

[Black_Tusk]

Many, many of what I would consider my peers have done just that, Nark, because they can't conduct business here under free market terms.

You keep talking about free market, but then complain if the government doesn't intervene to give slots or political favor to these new airlines. I don't think you quite understand what the "free market" really is... maybe go read a dictionary. Last time I checked AC is not a crown corporation anymore, and has not been for a long time. Time to hop off that train already...

If these companies want to succeed, they need to offer a better service and price than the competitor. If they can't, then they won't make it. Westjet managed to make it, there's no reason another can't. The last thing we should want is the government intervening.

[Rockie]

Disagree the Govt should help new players? Hypocrisy I say, AC's latest bleed of the taxpayer only came in 2009.

Refresh my memory please?

[Rookie50]

Many, many of what I would consider my peers have done just that, Nark, because they can't conduct business here under free market terms.

You keep talking about free market, but then complain if the government doesn't intervene to give slots or political favor to these new airlines. I don't think you quite understand what the "free market" really is... maybe go read a dictionary. Last time I checked AC is not a crown corporation anymore, and has not been for a long time. Time to hop off that train already...

If these companies want to succeed, they need to offer a better service and price than the competitor. If they can't, then they won't make it. Westjet managed to make it, there's no reason another can't. The last thing we should want is the government intervening.

Government intervening. Exactly my point.

1. Special terms re AC's pension deficit:
http://globalnews.ca/news/408624/air-ca ... a-bailout/

2. 2009. Some call it a loan. Any loan Gov't backed is a bailout. This isn't free market.
https://www.thestar.com/business/2009/0 ... ought.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... le1235415/

3. Neither is this: AC sues TPA for YTZ slots:
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=62279
Guess what, AC? In a "Free Market" you don't have the "right" to anything.

Someone on that thread:
"Porter took the time and spent the money to attract people back to the Island airport. They invested heavily in something Air Canada and Jazz wanted nothing to do with really since the Air Ontario days. Now they see someone making some money they want to swoop in and take it for themselves.

Reminds me of the tactics used by AC when it was a crown corporation and it used bully techniques to put great airlines like Ward Air out of business. Max Ward ran a better airline. Air Canada thwarted Ward Air because they did most things better than they did and for less money. Now they are trying the same stuff with Porter."

(Exactly stated, and nothing has changed in my view).


4. Predatory pricing, which is not a new law. Its on the books and AC has been investigated in the past for it.
http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/ ... 03746.html

I think that's enough.

[photofly]

There is no doubt Porter would never have survived if their slots at YTZ weren't protected by the TPA, only when Porter became successful at an airport AC totally ignored, did they run and cry about how unfair it was they couldn't change their minds and grab all the slots. TPA quite rightly told the whiners to get lost.

So both the TPA and the federal court agreed that AC didn't have the right to as many slots as it wanted. The outcome was exactly as you desire, so it's entirely unclear what you're moaning about.

And yet you say later

They don't own the slots. Some should be stripped away for any new competitors who want them, for example. No whining, please.

Which seems exactly the opposite of what you argue for elsewhere. On the one hand you want the government to protect Porter, on the other hand you want the government to strips slots away from monopoly incumbents to encourage new competitors.

Consistency is a valuable asset, and I'm not seeing any here.

]This thread is a example of what's wrong with this country.

Well, quite.

[Rookie50]

Which seems exactly the opposite of what you argue for elsewhere. On the one hand you want the government to protect Porter, on the other hand you want the government to strips slots away from monopoly incumbents to encourage new competitors.

Simple. What is in the best interest of the country? IMO, its more, not less, competition.

AC wanted the YTZ slots to kill off competition, (Porter). Would it be better if porter didn't exist? Maybe for AC. Not for Northern Ontario.

I think new competitors should be extended a (very) little favour to get going, whether its air service, (slots) telecom, (space on cell towers) whatever, certainly not locked out from competing.

You guys all like paying the highest mobile prices in the world?

I don't think that's horribly inconsistent, or bad policy. Except here. m

[Rockie]

Simple. What is in the best interest of the country? IMO, its more, not less, competition.

Do you think too much competition is bad for the industry? Airlines are a capital heavy and margin thin business after all and there is only so much demand. If capacity exceeds demand somebody (company) is inevitably going to die and maybe drag other companies down with it. You might not believe it but Air Canada at least is a much leaner and efficient company than it used to be. Thanks to competition yes, but AC almost died too along with the competition.

I'm also confused about the contradictory message of let the market determine - but don't let the market determine. Deregulate - but regulate.

[Rookie50]

Simple. What is in the best interest of the country? IMO, its more, not less, competition.

Do you think too much competition is bad for the industry? Airlines are a capital heavy and margin thin business after all and there is only so much demand. If capacity exceeds demand somebody (company) is inevitably going to die and maybe drag other companies down with it. You might not believe it but Air Canada at least is a much leaner and efficient company than it used to be. Thanks to competition yes, but AC almost died too along with the competition.

I'm also confused about the contradictory message of let the market determine - but don't let the market determine. Deregulate - but regulate.

No, generally I don't, and more should be encouraged, as policy. Hey, that doesn't mean I advocate handouts, as AC has gotten.