Lifestyle/Pay vs. PIC Time

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Disco Stu
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Lifestyle/Pay vs. PIC Time

Post by Disco Stu »

Curious as to who would:

A) Take a high paying turbine FO job with a sweet schedule, or take

B) The lower paying piston Captain job with lousy schedule.
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Radio Phone
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Post by Radio Phone »

B - then the even higher paying, turbine Capt. job will be available.

The real reason though, is that you'll gain better experience in the left seat, probably by yourself, than you would as an f/o - that will make you a better Capt. when the time comes. No question.
RP
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N8
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Post by N8 »

I vote for the same as Radio Phone on this one.
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Shiny Side Up
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Post by Shiny Side Up »

Depends, if that piston job is on a DC-3 I'd take it no matter what the pay.;)
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Post by Dockjock »

I'd like to say the PIC, but I just made the other choice. If you can call it that. Minus the pay :D
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Radio Phone
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Post by Radio Phone »

Dock Jock, take what you can get these days - but given the CHOICE I think it pretty clear which way is best. Problem is, not much choice any more...

RP
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PIC vs. Lifestyle

Post by Requesting FL270 »

I'd take the PIC time.... You should be able to tough out a year or two of shitty pay when in the long run it'll all pay off.
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ahramin
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You mean there is a choice?

Post by ahramin »

Early this year i had a chance to take B and turned it down. Not enough money to live off and not nice employers. That particular company is no longer answering its phone. So now i have taken A and making a good living and i have a great schedule and what a cool airplane and each hour only counts as a half an hour and if i have one more captain tell me he is going to shoot the ils on my leg i think i will cry. :)

As long as B does pay a decent living either one will work. Most companies do upgrade F/Os to captains but very few hire an F/O to be a captain.

Just do not take the job that does not pay enough to live off of because then you hurt everyone else and yourself when you want to move up to that good paying captain job.

ahramin
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Post by chiefpilot »

Take "A", as fast as you can, it's called seniority.
Once your in, then do your time in the right seat and gain the experience on type, if your lower command time, then they wait until you have around 800-1000 on type and give an upgrade if one opens, then you fly as a co-Captain until they feel your ready.

Answer "b" may keep you at that level for a very long time if nothing opens up at the company in answer "A", best to get while the getting is good!.

CP.
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Radio Phone
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Post by Radio Phone »

Ah yes, the attitude of the modern ladder climbing pilot.

What ever happened to getting the BEST experience one can get, instead of flying the same routes in the same machine year after year as a co-joe until the lucky day when the CP hands you the reigns. Then you get the guys who have 4000hrs and no skills. After that, they become those CP's that look at a resume full of meaningfull, great, character building experience, and say "I'd rather hire that kid who's been pounding on my door for the past three years while working the rampo next door..." Ok ok, maybe that's a bit of a stretch - maybe not, I can think of a few who fit the mould nicely...

As I said before, given a choice take the experience, the rest will take care of itself. However, there is no choice anymore.

RP
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3Green
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Post by 3Green »

Ok then...how about this little pickle.
You're Left Seat at your present company. Downside is that the company does maybe 450 to 500 hours a year. You have an opportunity/avenue to possibly gain employment with another company, doing the same type of flying. Your position at the new company would be Right Seat, but about twice the flying.
You've already spent a year right seat to get you into this left seat. Do you make the move and go right seat again for a year with the new joint, in hopes that you can go left seat, JUST SO YOUR GET MORE HOURS??? Or be happy with what you're getting...both are the same class of airplane...just at a slower rate?
Huh? HUH??
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bornagain1340
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Post by bornagain1340 »

It all depends on what you want out of your aviation career. Some people are perfectly happy with a good schedule and some decent cash with very little movement or progression.
Yeah PIC time is good, but living off of the super discounted "dented can" bin in the grocery store with little or no schedule only makes one dream of the choice that "could have been." (and dented spam doesn't belong in ANY food group by the way)
Regardless of what you choose though, stick with it. It'll all pay off in the end...or at least hope it will.
Cheers.
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chiefpilot
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Post by chiefpilot »

Radio Phone; :roll: at 4000 hours and First Officer on a Turbine, I should hope you have skill, ask West Jet what there minimums are and how much has to be command,
or rather, Turbine Commuter First Officer compared to Piston Command Air Taxi :(
And what is wrong with climbing the ladder?, is that not why people build time in the first place?.

CP.
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Radio Phone
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Post by Radio Phone »

CP - Hour building is of course important. But becomming an f/o asap as you stated earlier, is a sure way to build a mediocre pilot with limited skills.

As far as WJ goes, there are pilots there that I have flown many hours with and would NEVER send my familly with if it were a single pilot a/c, IFR or VFR, take your pick. Ex intstructor right seat guys. (No not all are that bad, but you get the idea) Turbines are the easiest thing to fly in the sky - regardless of how many hours you have. Hours mean very little.

Yes, there are companies where the type of work and equipment used is diverse enough to build a well rounded 4000hr pilot out of a 250hr wonder. Those, I'm sad to say, seem to be few and far between for many reasons - mostly that there is no work in this country. You roll your eyes at the 4000hr comment??? I could name you at least a dozen 4000hr folks who have skills that could be described as appalling. I'm not sure if you are a CP, sounds like it, so you MUST know what I'm talking about. If you are in Alberta, you should know what CMA's like north of Edmonton...

Quoting minimums for operations that fly the big iron is ridiculous. The vast majority of people flying for money in this country will never see jet type rating in their careers. That job's requirments are for SOP adhearing, company oriented men and women who end up doing more progamming than flying - which is perfectly FINE! It just does not apply to the average King Air Capt. slogging out a living in all the lousy places there are to fly in Canada. Totally different.

For a young pilot, building a solid base of decision making, hands and feet, and common sense is the most important thing. There are many jobs out there that pay quite well to bang around in a Navajo or the like, in places that are decent to live, and treat you well. Alberta does not seem to be that place anymore - unfortunate.

This desperate rush to the right seat does not breed highly skilled pilots, but the old alternative of the bush jobs seems to be dissappearing - again, unfortunate. I'm just not sure why you, an employer, would encourage guys to take the easy way. There is so much to be learned about life and yourself flying around single pilot getting jobs done and making mistakes on your own. Especially if you're really young kid, 19-23ish. Walking through the YYC terminal with three bars on for 22K/year doesn't teach you much. I hope you can at least agree with that much. :roll:

RP
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Post by JigglyBus »

This one seems easy to me. I agree with CP.

I don't think the question is which one will make the best pilot. The question is which will be better for ones career. The answer to that question is definitely b.

If you want to be the 'best' pilot you should probably jump from job to job. Fly some floats, fly some bush, fly some SPifr, fly anything you can get your hands on. However, I'm sure few people here are REALLY after the dream of being the 'best' pilot around. Most people want the bucks.

To move ahead in the airline game you'll need turbine time, and exerience in some larger aircraft. The pic is nice but after a while when you have 2500 piston pic, and no turbine time, you're no closer to that airline job, than the f/o with 2000 turbine. In fact in a lot of ways, he'd be well ahead of you.

I don't know what you're shooting for, a life as a mediocre B747 capt, or a really really really good Navajo pilot.

Your choice.
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Post by Radio Phone »

And there are so many 747 Capt.'s out there...

The point you guys seem to be making is, settle for what's easiest and most boring in order to get ahead on a seniority list. Have your way. I'm sure their careers will be filled with stimulation...

RP
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RB211
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Post by RB211 »

RP,

You have a definite bitterness sound to your posts. At least it comes across that way. :)

There is more than one way to becoming a good pilot with a decent knowledge base and good decision making skills. I have flown with Capts from the single pilot bush enviornment you hold so high in regard and they were complete idiots in a crew enviornment. I have also flown with the guy that built time in the right seat and learned from those he/she worked with, and they were good pilots. I have also flown with the opposite of each above type.

I think the willingness to learn and a good attitude will lead to a quality pilot regardless of the route taken. Which route to take also depends what one wants as a career. IMHO :D
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Post by Disco Stu »

Now let me add something I should have said first:

You already have 2800TT, of which 2500 is turbine FO and currently hold the high paying sweet scheduled FO job.

You would be staying within the same company, and your seniority number is not changing. Simply a change of seats and airplanes. And only for 6 months, then could go back to the FO job until a Captain spot opens up on the turbine.

You would be logging 30-40 hours a month FO vs. 100 hours a month as PIC on the twin piston.

The debate is lifestyle vs. PIC time. 1 week off 1 on vs. M-F 6am-830pm. $3600 difference in pay over the 6 month period.

Same answers?
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Post by jimmyjazz »

go fly the bag run for a change of scenery and it will freshen up the resume, i don't think everyone does all the math in breaking down all the times but the PIC couldnt hurt with 2500 f/o
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Post by JBI »

If you'll keep your seniority, go for the PIC time. It'll be a nice change of scenery and the multi-PIC time can't hurt.
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