Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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Rookie50
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Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Rookie50 »

http://www.reuters.com/article/canada-b ... SO8N172019

Frankly, this ticks me off. Govt is lending out my money to a loser company who can't compete, has many of their transit division customers furious at them over delays -- Google that -- everything clearly indicating complete incompetence at the highest levels.

And Canada rewards incompetence with your and my tax dollars, and prevents a perhaps future, better managed competitor from rising up to fill a void left by a BBD bankruptcy.

And people wonder why this country is so dysfunctional? Will they bail out my small company if I get into trouble?

Deeply disagree with this. Your tax dollars -- buying Quebec liberal votes.

Trust everyone here is happy. The liberal nanny state stil reigns!

You may think BBD has a "right" to exist. I see it differently.

What about the rights of a smaller aerospace company, that the government won't support, and perhaps be put out of business by the unfair advantage of government bailouts? Maybe a small private company -- located in a Conservative voting area -- that could "grow" given a free market?

That's how the system works. Bankruptcies are a part of it, and new competitors form to meet the market demand.

It's either capitalism or communism. For all it's faults, capitalism has worked fairly well considering the big picture.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by complexintentions »

I particularly love how it's the "Innovation Minister" (wtf, over?) making the announcement.

Corporate welfare: how innovative! :mrgreen:
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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Aircraft manufacturers are subsidized all around the world, either through loans/grants or sweet deals at the sale end. Sadly , we need to maintain a level playing field in order to be competitive through assistance BUT NOT 1 penny more
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by ho_life »

This makes me very very happy as a share holder.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Rookie50 »

crazyaviator wrote:Aircraft manufacturers are subsidized all around the world, either through loans/grants or sweet deals at the sale end. Sadly , we need to maintain a level playing field in order to be competitive through assistance BUT NOT 1 penny more
This is nothing to do with subsidization.

This is bailing out gross incompetence at the highest levels. It's a political football and always has been.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/1 ... order.html

http://www.fool.ca/2017/01/26/bombardie ... his-train/
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by 7ECA »

Rookie50 wrote:For all it's faults, capitalism has worked fairly well considering the big picture.
Damn, that's funny.

Seeing as how corporate welfare is a corner stone of capitalist thinking, sure, you're going to see governments decide to let large companies falter and fail. Sort of like GM, and all of those US banks that were just "too big to fail" in 2008. What I find interesting, is how "too big to fail" soon after turned into "too big to jail", because we wouldn't want to actually hold any executives accountable for tanking the economy through negligence - well, other than that one guy whom the US courts threw the book at, hell, we made sure they made an example of him...
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by CpnCrunch »

Embraer, Boeing and Airbus have all received subsidies or tax breaks as well. This is a loan, so not quite the same as a bailout or tax break.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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CpnCrunch wrote:Embraer, Boeing and Airbus have all received subsidies or tax breaks as well. This is a loan, so not quite the same as a bailout or tax break.
A loan. That's a laugh. A loan I wouldn't guarantee.

Tell you what, why not look at the long term stock chart of Bombardier, then of Boeing, and assess which company the actual free market thinks is a better credit risk.

The C series was a gigantic mistake that in the free market should have BK'd them. That class is low margins. They have a good business jet division, should have just focused on that.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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7ECA wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:For all it's faults, capitalism has worked fairly well considering the big picture.
Damn, that's funny.

Seeing as how corporate welfare is a corner stone of capitalist thinking, sure, you're going to see governments decide to let large companies falter and fail. Sort of like GM, and all of those US banks that were just "too big to fail" in 2008. What I find interesting, is how "too big to fail" soon after turned into "too big to jail", because we wouldn't want to actually hold any executives accountable for tanking the economy through negligence - well, other than that one guy whom the US courts threw the book at, hell, we made sure they made an example of him...
I'm trying to make the connection between loaning a failing company money in Canada and not jailing US banking executives.

Just because I don't support idiotic corporate welfare doesn't mean I support decisions made in the US in regards to non prosecution. Different issues.

I support, reluctantly, the banking bailouts -- loans -- whatever, because the credit markets were completely frozen, which means the economy ceased to function. The US had no choice in that regard, and US banks have paid billions in fines.

BTW the root of the US housing crisis can be laid at the feet not originally of the banks, but the US Government. They has a social policy that everyone should own, and pressured looser lending standards to make that happen. And they are in process to do it all over again.

Again, all nothing to do with lending money to a company that outside government support, is certainly destined for bankruptcy. Is what it is.

GM is much more debatable, and that might have been tied to US bailouts. This, isnt.

Let's examine this rationally. Back then the banks and GM bailouts were certainly driven by a global financial crisis. More arguable on any metric, (and I wrestle with GM's).

Where's the financial crisis today? Economy is smoking hot in the US. WHY now should BBD need a dime? Isn't this simply rewarding poor management?
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by bobcaygeon »

CpnCrunch wrote:Embraer, Boeing and Airbus have all received subsidies or tax breaks as well. This is a loan, so not quite the same as a bailout or tax break.
A loan to an inbred company with a "fixed" board where you can never clean house because the voting structure. Publicly traded but never held accountable to the shareholder.

This is the reason guy's like Trump get elected. BBD gets loaned hundreds of millions and the jobs are in places like Mexico. (TTC trains, Global parts, Lear 75/85, plus many many CSeries systems)

This company has been a stinker for a very long time.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by xTally »

Rookie50 wrote:
7ECA wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:For all it's faults, capitalism has worked fairly well considering the big picture.

I support, reluctantly, the banking bailouts -- loans -- whatever, because the credit markets were completely frozen, which means the economy ceased to function. The US had no choice in that regard, and US banks have paid billions in fines.

BTW the root of the US housing crisis can be laid at the feet not originally of the banks, but the US Government. They has a social policy that everyone should own, and pressured looser lending standards to make that happen. And they are in process to do it all over again.

Again, all nothing to do with lending money to a company that outside government support, is certainly destined for bankruptcy. Is what it is.

GM is much more debatable, and that might have been tied to US bailouts. This, isnt.
There was certainly more than one choice. Governments did not have to bail out the banks. Government could have implemented a multitude of solutions to keep the 'economy' running. Unfortunately none of those options enriched the very powerful so they were never considered.

What makes it even more rage inducing is that none of the bank executives were ever jailed (in usa or canada), and their so called fines have been dwarfed by the profit made in the last few years.

And you are incorrect. The fault of the banking crises lies directly at the feet of the banks. The banking and monetary system is essentially by design built to collapse. In their feeding frenzy (attempting to extract every dollar possible from your average joe), banks and other corporations over the decades have bought all sectors of government through corruption and lobbying with the goal of maximizing their profits even if it would hasten the cycle of collapse. That collapse finally happened in 2008 and they will now build up the next one with a different feeding frenzy.

As for Bombardier being bailed out... this is not surprising. Only your average middle class Canadian plays by the rules of the free market (aka free to fail). For large corporations they receive all the benefits of the welfare state without any of the responsibilities.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Rookie50 »

bobcaygeon wrote:
CpnCrunch wrote:Embraer, Boeing and Airbus have all received subsidies or tax breaks as well. This is a loan, so not quite the same as a bailout or tax break.
A loan to an inbred company with a "fixed" board where you can never clean house because the voting structure. Publicly traded but never held accountable to the shareholder.

This is the reason guy's like Trump get elected. BBD gets loaned hundreds of millions and the jobs are in places like Mexico. (TTC trains, Global parts, Lear 75/85, plus many many CSeries systems)

This company has been a stinker for a very long time.
I've mentioned before, this is exactly the kind of policy that drives people with real innovative talent to the US. The idiot response was -- just move there then. Intelligent. Doesn't anyone want to see a strong, competitive Canada -- instead of forever a home for fish, timber, dirty oil and pictures of Mounties?

The flip question is, if I had capital -- and a passion for building an aerospace company, why would I ever stay in Canada, with my talent or my money, and compete with the government of Canada?
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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xTally wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:
7ECA wrote:

I support, reluctantly, the banking bailouts -- loans -- whatever, because the credit markets were completely frozen, which means the economy ceased to function. The US had no choice in that regard, and US banks have paid billions in fines.

BTW the root of the US housing crisis can be laid at the feet not originally of the banks, but the US Government. They has a social policy that everyone should own, and pressured looser lending standards to make that happen. And they are in process to do it all over again.

Again, all nothing to do with lending money to a company that outside government support, is certainly destined for bankruptcy. Is what it is.

GM is much more debatable, and that might have been tied to US bailouts. This, isnt.
There was certainly more than one choice. Governments did not have to bail out the banks. Government could have implemented a multitude of solutions to keep the 'economy' running. Unfortunately none of those options enriched the very powerful so they were never considered.

What makes it even more rage inducing is that none of the bank executives were ever jailed (in usa or canada), and their so called fines have been dwarfed by the profit made in the last few years.

And you are incorrect. The fault of the banking crises lies directly at the feet of the banks. The banking and monetary system is essentially by design built to collapse. In their feeding frenzy (attempting to extract every dollar possible from your average joe), banks and other corporations over the decades have bought all sectors of government through corruption and lobbying with the goal of maximizing their profits even if it would hasten the cycle of collapse. That collapse finally happened in 2008 and they will now build up the next one with a different feeding frenzy.

As for Bombardier being bailed out... this is not surprising. Only your average middle class Canadian plays by the rules of the free market (aka free to fail). For large corporations they receive all the benefits of the welfare state without any of the responsibilities.
Disagree, on proximate source of the housing crisis. Yes, banks were obviously participants, not the social policy at the root. Insurers like AIG, and Fannie Mae were huge factors.

And, at the end of the day, No - One -- and applies in this country with the ridiculous housing debt taken on here by joe public -- forces anyone to assume debt beyond their means. No bank can force people to take million dollar mortgages.

Central banks consistently keep interest rates far too low, and that is govt policy, too, forming bubbles.

Many culprits, I suppose, on that story.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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Rookie50 wrote:
CpnCrunch wrote:Embraer, Boeing and Airbus have all received subsidies or tax breaks as well. This is a loan, so not quite the same as a bailout or tax break.
A loan. That's a laugh. A loan I wouldn't guarantee.

Tell you what, why not look at the long term stock chart of Bombardier, then of Boeing, and assess which company the actual free market thinks is a better credit risk.

The C series was a gigantic mistake that in the free market should have BK'd them. That class is low margins. They have a good business jet division, should have just focused on that.
Take the elastic band off your testicles, cause that game is a sin.
Once some blood gets back to your head, try and see if that stops you from foaming at the mouth with your capitalist line every time a decent poster who knows much more than you posts.
If that doesn't work, bugger off.

And burn the elastic band so some poor did doesn't accidentally pick it up.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Rookie50 »

cncpc wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:
CpnCrunch wrote:Embraer, Boeing and Airbus have all received subsidies or tax breaks as well. This is a loan, so not quite the same as a bailout or tax break.
A loan. That's a laugh. A loan I wouldn't guarantee.

Tell you what, why not look at the long term stock chart of Bombardier, then of Boeing, and assess which company the actual free market thinks is a better credit risk.

The C series was a gigantic mistake that in the free market should have BK'd them. That class is low margins. They have a good business jet division, should have just focused on that.
Take the elastic band off your testicles, cause that game is a sin.
Once some blood gets back to your head, try and see if that stops you from foaming at the mouth with your capitalist line every time a decent poster who knows much more than you posts.
If that doesn't work, bugger off.

And burn the elastic band so some poor did doesn't accidentally pick it up.
Intelligent. :mrgreen:
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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Bombardier is on to its seventh project manager in Thunder Bay,” says Andy Byford, chief executive of the Toronto Transit Commission, which has received 18 new streetcars of 75 Bombardier had promised by this point.
yep problems ,,,
To save money, Bombardier decided to build frames, floors, bogies (wheel assemblies) and wiring harnesses for the streetcars at the plant it bought years ago from the Mexican government in Ciudad Sahagun, not far from Mexico City.

But when the Mexican-made parts arrived by truck 4,000 kilometres north in Thunder Bay, workers discovered that they did not fit properly together.

“The parts were not of a quality where we could stick them on the car,” said Dominic Pasqualino, president of Unifor Local 1075, which represents 920 workers in Thunder Bay, and who is a third-generation employee of the plant. “We spend so much time reworking or waiting for parts, and the lines get shut down, and it’s so frustrating.”

The plant works more efficiently when it builds cars in-house, he said. “Now we’re translating into two languages and going across two borders. These are complicated cars, and there’s a lot of revisions when you are making a brand-new car.”
let the third world countries take the Canadian jobs and see what happens!
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by 7ECA »

It's called outsourcing, all the good capitalist companies do it - you know, in the name of cutting costs.

Right, Rookie?
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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Bombardier’s bad breakup with London’s transit authority in 2013 reared its head again this week. A budget committee report accused the Montreal plane-and-train maker of misrepresenting its ability to upgrade the Tube’s signalling system. In the end, Transport for London, which was also chastised for its handling of the contract, paid Bombardier $160 million to get out of the deal before hiring a competitor to complete the work. The British transportation agency cited Bombardier’s “shameful performance” while London Mayor Boris Johnson went further, saying Bombardier “totally stuffed it up.”
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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Here are five other examples where Bombardier’s rail business ran into trouble.
1. The Toronto Transit Commission: The good news is Toronto’s next-generation streetcars are supposed to begin arriving at a rate of four a month beginning in April. The bad news: there were supposed to be 73 of them trundling along the streets by the end of last year, but a series of production delays meant only 16 were actually delivered. The TTC at one point considered suing Bombardier for repeated delays of its $1.25-billion order. All 204 of the low-floor streetcars are expected to be in service by 2019.
2. Swiss Federal Railways: The first of 62 double-decker trains built by Bombardier are set to go in service in Switzerland later this year, two years behind schedule. The terms of the contract had to be revised after a disagreement between Swiss Federal Railways, which complained of production delays, and Bombardier, which blamed the rail operator for tinkering with the design. Bombardier later said Swiss Federal Railways ultimately agreed to absorb the costs of the delayed schedule, and that Bombardier faced no penalties.
3. Metropolitan Transit Authority: Delays in the delivery of new Bombardier-built replacement cars means some New York City subway users will ride the same vehicles as Mad Men’s Don Draper did in 1964, according to a local transit group. The only difference? “They don’t look as good as he does.” Bombardier won the contract to build 300 cars for $600 million back in 2012. The old, 1960s-era cars were originally supposed to be phased out by 2017, but will now stick around as late as 2022.
4. City of Phoenix: Bombardier was hired in 2009 to design and build a sky train that would connect travellers at Phoenix’s Sky Harbour International Airport. But Bombardier ended up suing a subcontractor for allegedly performing shoddy track work.
5. Amtrak: America’s first high-speed trains were delivered in 2000 by Bombardier and France’s Alstom. But they came more than a year late and initially ran at slower-than-advertised speeds between Washington and Boston. Amtrak claimed the railcars didn’t meet design specifications, while Bombardier said the data provided to it about tunnels and track geometry was inaccurate. The two sides ended up suing each other and eventually settled. Bombardier said in 2014 that it wouldn’t bid on replacements for the trains.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by crazyaviator »

If Bombardier has chewed thru 7 Project Mgrs, maybe it's not the Project Mgrs that are the problem, maybe it's the environment that they have to function within and the system that they have to work with. It also seems to me that BBD made a huge mistake in closing down a very successful plant in Kingston, Ont that produced a quality product to schedule and buying a Mexican plant that produces a poor quality product, very late to schedule.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by porcsord »

I will bet anyone on here a beer that loans doesn't get paid back, and is forgiven. This is ANOTHER bailout.

I just wish the government would give me an interest free loan... for anything really.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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Tis no secret BBD has been on the receiving end of taxpayer dollars for a good number of years. Due to our relative small position amongst the heavyweights in the aerospace industry, there will come a time when enough is enough and BBD will be sold and/or future governments will stop infusing tax dollars.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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crazyaviator wrote:If Bombardier has chewed thru 7 Project Mgrs, maybe it's not the Project Mgrs that are the problem, maybe it's the environment that they have to function within and the system that they have to work with. It also seems to me that BBD made a huge mistake in closing down a very successful plant in Kingston, Ont that produced a quality product to schedule and buying a Mexican plant that produces a poor quality product, very late to schedule.

.....Yet we are supposed to reward this incompetence you've laid out well, with more taxpayer money, according to some.

Tell you what, those you support pouring money down this toilet. Make a personal donation to the government of Canada -- designate to BBD.

Don't tell me to support them with my tax dollars. I didn't vote for this buffoon government with a leader with a cute hairdo, to throw our money away.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Rockie »

I don't disagree that BBD has been the recipient of huge amounts of taxpayer largesse over the years or that it is a grossly mismanaged company. However this is a loan, and when this airplane gets the attention and orders it deserves feel free to insist it be paid back. This airplane is a real Canadian achievement that I do not at all mind supporting and promoting.

As for comparisons to Boeing, they are probably the single biggest defence contractor in the US which is the very definition of corporate welfare.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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Rockie wrote:I don't disagree that BBD has been the recipient of huge amounts of taxpayer largesse over the years or that it is a grossly mismanaged company. However this is a loan, and when this airplane gets the attention and orders it deserves feel free to insist it be paid back. This airplane is a real Canadian achievement that I do not at all mind supporting and promoting.

As for comparisons to Boeing, they are probably the single biggest defence contractor in the US which is the very definition of corporate welfare.
"Gets the orders it deserves".

What does that mean? If it "deserved orders - it would have them!"

If the private market thought the C series or the rest of the company, had a bright future, they would have no issue raising the money, without government help. The world is swimming in cheap money looking for viable projects with any reasonable return. Obviously the private market doesn't like the risk.

BBD doesn't "deserve" anything -- except perhaps to be allowed to go BK. Why is that so horrible?

I take no Canadian "pride" in a government life support project.

Boeing? The leading supplier of Civilian aircraft worldwide --, I'd argue.
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