Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

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porcsord
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by porcsord »

I will bet anyone on here a beer that loans doesn't get paid back, and is forgiven. This is ANOTHER bailout.

I just wish the government would give me an interest free loan... for anything really.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Old fella »

Tis no secret BBD has been on the receiving end of taxpayer dollars for a good number of years. Due to our relative small position amongst the heavyweights in the aerospace industry, there will come a time when enough is enough and BBD will be sold and/or future governments will stop infusing tax dollars.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Rookie50 »

crazyaviator wrote:If Bombardier has chewed thru 7 Project Mgrs, maybe it's not the Project Mgrs that are the problem, maybe it's the environment that they have to function within and the system that they have to work with. It also seems to me that BBD made a huge mistake in closing down a very successful plant in Kingston, Ont that produced a quality product to schedule and buying a Mexican plant that produces a poor quality product, very late to schedule.

.....Yet we are supposed to reward this incompetence you've laid out well, with more taxpayer money, according to some.

Tell you what, those you support pouring money down this toilet. Make a personal donation to the government of Canada -- designate to BBD.

Don't tell me to support them with my tax dollars. I didn't vote for this buffoon government with a leader with a cute hairdo, to throw our money away.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Rockie »

I don't disagree that BBD has been the recipient of huge amounts of taxpayer largesse over the years or that it is a grossly mismanaged company. However this is a loan, and when this airplane gets the attention and orders it deserves feel free to insist it be paid back. This airplane is a real Canadian achievement that I do not at all mind supporting and promoting.

As for comparisons to Boeing, they are probably the single biggest defence contractor in the US which is the very definition of corporate welfare.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Rookie50 »

Rockie wrote:I don't disagree that BBD has been the recipient of huge amounts of taxpayer largesse over the years or that it is a grossly mismanaged company. However this is a loan, and when this airplane gets the attention and orders it deserves feel free to insist it be paid back. This airplane is a real Canadian achievement that I do not at all mind supporting and promoting.

As for comparisons to Boeing, they are probably the single biggest defence contractor in the US which is the very definition of corporate welfare.
"Gets the orders it deserves".

What does that mean? If it "deserved orders - it would have them!"

If the private market thought the C series or the rest of the company, had a bright future, they would have no issue raising the money, without government help. The world is swimming in cheap money looking for viable projects with any reasonable return. Obviously the private market doesn't like the risk.

BBD doesn't "deserve" anything -- except perhaps to be allowed to go BK. Why is that so horrible?

I take no Canadian "pride" in a government life support project.

Boeing? The leading supplier of Civilian aircraft worldwide --, I'd argue.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Rockie »

Rookie50 wrote:
Rockie wrote:I don't disagree that BBD has been the recipient of huge amounts of taxpayer largesse over the years or that it is a grossly mismanaged company. However this is a loan, and when this airplane gets the attention and orders it deserves feel free to insist it be paid back. This airplane is a real Canadian achievement that I do not at all mind supporting and promoting.

As for comparisons to Boeing, they are probably the single biggest defence contractor in the US which is the very definition of corporate welfare.
"Gets the orders it deserves".

What does that mean? If it "deserved orders - it would have them!"
It's a great airplane that just entered service, give it time.
Rookie50 wrote:Boeing? The leading supplier of Civilian aircraft worldwide --, I'd argue.
Absolutely true all by itself never mind the military contracts which are massive. By my count their civilian stable consists of the 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777 and the 787 all of which are hugely successful (well, except for the 717 that wasn't really theirs), which makes your BBD comparison to them even more odd.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Rookie50 »

This comment renders the opinion BBD doesn't even NEED the money -- the government forced it on them to look like they are still relevant -- after all the prior bailout money -- with no employment or other conditions.

http://business.financialpost.com/fp-co ... didnt-need

I'm speechless. (And skeptical)

And If true, that's even more bizzare policy.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Vickers vanguard »

Rookie50 wrote:
crazyaviator wrote:Aircraft manufacturers are subsidized all around the world, either through loans/grants or sweet deals at the sale end. Sadly , we need to maintain a level playing field in order to be competitive through assistance BUT NOT 1 penny more
This is nothing to do with subsidization.

This is bailing out gross incompetence at the highest levels. It's a political football and always has been.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/1 ... order.html

http://www.fool.ca/2017/01/26/bombardie ... his-train/



how about all the money the auto industry got during the 2009 crisis ! and none of them were even Canadian...it was just to keep jobs here. Canadians are like brits when it comes to their industries and expertise.....you will become a shadow of yourselves. And by the way, 3 hundreds something millions ??? I really think they could have done without it at this stage. the most important move came from Quebec with their billion AT THE RIGHT MOMENT. Sure, people have to be accountable but not to the point of letting such a jewel fail.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by av8ts »

Read a story in the paper today that since it's beginning Bombardier has received over 4 billion in government handouts. Also Bombardier has lobbied to have themselves removed from the Access To Information list so they may have received more without us knowing and the taxpayers are not privileged to repayment terms of loans.

I actually don't have a problem with giving them money. It's a better investment than the billion spent on the G20 in Toronto or the billion the Ontario Liberals spent to cancel the gas plant and buy the election. However as a taxpayer I should be able to find out exactly how much I'm giving them and the repayment terms.
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Gino Under
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Gino Under »

So ...
I gather from the majority posting, we should NOT allow BBD to seek investors, especially if the investor is the Canadian government (aka Canadian taxpayers). Let's ask the Feds to dismantle those other useless departments while we're at it, Industry and Commerce, the Business development bank, which are nothing but a farce any way. (Really???)

Based on all the cheering, if BBD is allowed to cave in like a Florida sinkhole as is proposed, the debris sucked down with it will likely be most of the Canadian aerospace industry. Gee, what an sensible suggestion that is. I'm sure the employees at many of our aerospace companies will immediately see the brilliance in your rants and are hoping you'll soon run for office to get a grip on things.

Let's continue to compare BBD with Boeing (despite their differences, like age, product line, markets, two world wars plus) or Airbus (for most of the same reasons). The very fact some of those posting know the competition for BBD along with the level and intensity of that competition, they seem to prefer that Canada stay out of the game all together.
Why should we (Canadians) have the arrogance of dreaming big? Who in their right mind would want to get behind the 3rd largest aircraft manufacturer? Because it's much cheaper and easier to support a hockey team at the Olympics or, because it's a Quebec Corporation (you mean like, Air Canada).
Wait. Most of Canada's aerospace is based in Quebec. Dommage!!

What about globalization so many here seem to be in favour of? (I'm not)

The fact that C series has outsold every previous BBD product with wings to date, not to mention numerous other new aircraft types at certification, is sold out for at least the next two plus years, is the most modern, quietest, fuel efficient aircraft in its class ...
can't imagine why any Canadian would want to see it succeed.

BTW, if you think this company is poorly managed or not on the road to recovery ...
you know diddley squat about BBD.

Gino Under
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by mbav8r »

Thanks Gino, I don't understand it either, who is this so called competition that could fill the void if BBD were to fail. That was one of the most ridiculous arguments I heard on this topic, it's not like there is any other aerospace companies in Canada with a clean slate design aircraft, that if only BBD were out of the way they could get it going, come on!
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by bobcaygeon »

Rookie50 wrote:
bobcaygeon wrote:
CpnCrunch wrote:Embraer, Boeing and Airbus have all received subsidies or tax breaks as well. This is a loan, so not quite the same as a bailout or tax break.
A loan to an inbred company with a "fixed" board where you can never clean house because the voting structure. Publicly traded but never held accountable to the shareholder.

This is the reason guy's like Trump get elected. BBD gets loaned hundreds of millions and the jobs are in places like Mexico. (TTC trains, Global parts, Lear 75/85, plus many many CSeries systems)

This company has been a stinker for a very long time.
I've mentioned before, this is exactly the kind of policy that drives people with real innovative talent to the US. The idiot response was -- just move there then. Intelligent. Doesn't anyone want to see a strong, competitive Canada -- instead of forever a home for fish, timber, dirty oil and pictures of Mounties?

The flip question is, if I had capital -- and a passion for building an aerospace company, why would I ever stay in Canada, with my talent or my money, and compete with the government of Canada?
Bombardier will never be that as long as the Beaudoin/Bombardier clan are running the show. The government had it right when they included the requirement to remove/change the dual class share structure that gave these clowns 60% of the voting shares despite holding only 25% of the shares by value. They removed all the restrictions to buy votes in Quebec. This money is going to Global 7000 which is based on an old design that is hardly industry leading. Don't get me started on their train incompetence and how much of their work is done outside of Canada in places like Mexico.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Gino Under »

I can't imagine why the owners of Bombardier would want to change anything, regardless of its share structure or composition of its board of directors. It's still a private corporation. Isn't it? I'd imagine even bobcaygeon would sell to whomever he chose to, or would accept financial help from whomever offered it, if he owned a company in financial distress and were in a similar position. Why would the Bombardier family be any different? It seems reasonable to me that they'd exercise whatever ownership powers they have while still in a position to do so. The Canadian government loan doesn't buy them the company nor does it make them a controlling member of the board.
Strings are strings, whether its the government or not. Bombardier doesn't have to accept government strings or they'd likely be getting more money from the Feds than what's on offer. Unless they were in as bad a financial shape as some would have us believe. The amount on offer suggests otherwise.
I guess we'll find out when their Annual Report comes out.

It's their sinking ship. I suspect they'd have a better idea of when it's time to accept a lifeline or get into a lifeboat than I do. I think it would be odd if they tried to pick and choose between lifeboats though, but then again, I'm not on a sinking ship.

Judging by the remarks regarding the Global 7000, I'd say somebody doesn't know much about the 7000.

... But that's only one mans opinion.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Gino Under »

Air Canada's CS300s could enable broad network changes
Flight Global
Jon Hemmerdinger

Though Air Canada has described its incoming Bombardier CS300s as replacements for Embraer 190s, a top Air Canada executive has suggested the fleet plan could evolve.

Air Canada president of passenger airlines Benjamin Smith says the new Bombardier aircraft could prove as transformative as Boeing 787s, allowing Air Canada to make broader network changes.

During an interview with FlightGlobal at Toronto Pearson International airport on 9 February, Smith makes clear that Air Canada's plan calls for the CS300 to replace the E190.

"But that's assuming our network is static," he adds.

"This airplane is so good [that] we think it's going to want to go on every route in North America," Smith says of the CS300.

"The economics – it's got CASM rates that are equivalent to much larger airplanes. So it may enable us, or give us the opportunity, to rethink our bank structures, how our network is designed," he adds.

Air Canada has orders for 45 CS300s, with deliveries scheduled for between 2019 and 2022, according to Flight Fleets Analyzer. The 25 E190s scheduled for replacement are only about 10 years old, Fleets Analyzer shows.

"It's kind of like the 787," Smith says of the CSeries.

Air Canada initially ordered 787s as replacements for ageing Boeing 767s and Airbus A330s.

But the 787s proved so efficient on long-haul routes that Air Canada instead used them to launch a major international expansion, Smith says.

Air Canada ended up keeping the A330s in its mainline fleet, and transitioned the 767s to its newly-created low-cost subsidiary Rouge, Smith notes.

Thanks to the 787, Air Canada "rejiggered our entire network," Smith says. "If we can hit a similar home run with the CSeries, that would be amazing."

CSeries would be "perfect" for a route such as Vancouver to Boston, which "stretches the legs of the Airbus narrowbody", Smith says.

Or, Air Canada could potentially deploy CS300s from extreme-eastern Canadian cities to destinations in Europe, or from Vancouver to Hawaii, Smith says.

Smith says Air Canada remains confident Bombardier will meet its delivery schedule, downplaying the possibility that recent delivery delays could stretch into the coming years.

"We don't have a concern about the delivery schedule on the CSeries," Smith says. "We have a long history with Bombardier. We know their leadership extremely well."

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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by bobcaygeon »

Gino Under wrote:I can't imagine why the owners of Bombardier would want to change anything, regardless of its share structure or composition of its board of directors. It's still a private corporation. Isn't it? I'd imagine even bobcaygeon would sell to whomever he chose to, or would accept financial help from whomever offered it, if he owned a company in financial distress and were in a similar position. Why would the Bombardier family be any different? It seems reasonable to me that they'd exercise whatever ownership powers they have while still in a position to do so. The Canadian government loan doesn't buy them the company nor does it make them a controlling member of the board.
Strings are strings, whether its the government or not. Bombardier doesn't have to accept government strings or they'd likely be getting more money from the Feds than what's on offer. Unless they were in as bad a financial shape as some would have us believe. The amount on offer suggests otherwise.
I guess we'll find out when their Annual Report comes out.

It's their sinking ship. I suspect they'd have a better idea of when it's time to accept a lifeline or get into a lifeboat than I do. I think it would be odd if they tried to pick and choose between lifeboats though, but then again, I'm not on a sinking ship.

Judging by the remarks regarding the Global 7000, I'd say somebody doesn't know much about the 7000.

... But that's only one mans opinion.
Bombardier is a publicly traded company that feeds off of government cash (repayable loan, what other kind is there for normal people). The dual class crap is a joke that feeds the inbreeding that keeps on appointing family to lead the ship down the toilet until another government cheque arrives.

The Global 7000 is rewinged earlier Global Express. Look at it. It has the same shitty baggage door as an RJ/Challenger and finally has bigger windows than an RJ (the original didn't). The whole line of that aircraft is bought and paid for by the taxpayer when the government owned Canadair and spent a ridiculous amount of money getting the Challenger 600 (and it's POS Lycoming engines) to market.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Gino Under »

Try visiting the Bombardier website.
If you look at their listed management you won't find any family members listed or involved in the daily management of this company.

If you look at their Board of directors you will find two family members. One of whom is listed as 'emeritus' (which means he only has a title). I'd say your assessment of Bombardier's present leadership is way out in left field.

FYI
The number of GX in service today is over 600.
The number of G650s in service as of December 2016, 222.
Not bad for a 'sh*tbox', eh? And a Canadian 'sh*tbox' at that.

One of the Canadian government roles will always be to support Canadian business and businesses if and or when it can. Welcome to that reality.

:drinkers: Gino Under
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Rookie50 »

Gino Under wrote: One of the Canadian government roles will always be to support Canadian business and businesses if and or when it can. Welcome to that reality.

:drinkers: Gino Under
...Then with that approach ultimately the world will downgrade Canada's debt, unless they want to print money like other countries.

We can't afford it, and "Canada" supporting failing businesses means "my personal tax dollars". And I don't support this. It's offensive. I'm not "Canadian" so I can be a contributor and have the nanny state rip me off to buy votes in Quebec. Where's the money for Alberta companies, Canada? Oh, that's different.

Also, I run a small business, "Canada". So do thousands of others. Better run than BBD.

Where's mine, then?

It doesn't work.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Gino Under »

So, you're assuming BBD is failing. I'm not.

I'm assuming BBD is recovering and the tax payer will get his money back AS AGREED.

FWIW
It's my tax money too and I have numerous complaints about how my contributions to that kitty gets spent by the Feds regardless of their political stripe.
Health care. What health care? It's been years since I had a family physician. Yet zillions are poured into health care every year. That's bang for my buck. And without any return I might add.
F35s? Refugees? Free Flags? You name it. They're full of brilliant ways to spend our tax dollars. Some of their ideas DO make sense and support for Bombardier, and other companies like Bombardier (who employ tax payers BTW) makes sense. Heck, they bailed out tax payers in the auto industry working for non-Canadian manufacturers. I'm still picking my brains up off the floor over that one. It's what they do.

"Canada" isn't all things to all people or businesses. I get that.
When the majority of aerospace companies are in Quebec, it's more than a 'French' thing. Unless you don't have the ability to see "Canada's" support for what it is. Support for a Canadian Corporation. (the popularity of the Liberals in Quebec, BTW, both provincial and federal, is sinking like the Titanic)

I would echo your sentiments regarding Alberta businesses. I lost my shirt on COS.

:partyman:
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by B208 »

Gino Under wrote:So, you're assuming BBD is failing. I'm not.
If they were doing really well they wouldn't need the loan......or the one before it.....of the one before that......

Pure pork barrel.
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Re: Canadian Govt to bail out Bombardier.

Post by Gino Under »

I didn't say they were doing fantastic financially and don't need the financial investment. I said I don't think they are a failing company.
Pork barrel politics? Well, I"ll give you that. But tough times call for tough measures and you kiss whatever ass needs kissing.
(I don't make the rules)

If you're going to trash BBD or any other Canadian company, do some f**kin' reading.

Gino Under :drinkers:
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