Is anyone seeing pay increases?

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johngalt
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Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by johngalt »

Now that we seem to be in a full swing pilot shortage is anyone seeing a pay increase or is the shortage been overhyped?
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marakii
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by marakii »

johngalt wrote:Now that we seem to be in a full swing pilot shortage is anyone seeing a pay increase or is the shortage been overhyped?

703 and 704 operators that fly navajo and kingairs are still asking for 1000 to 1500 hours to get on.

I think the pilot shortage is way overhyped.
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FOD_Vacuum
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by FOD_Vacuum »

Yes. I'm in a 703 operation. And we have recently been given a pay raise and a juicy bonus close to 5 figures if we are around this time next year in February.
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Black_Tusk
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by Black_Tusk »

marakii wrote:
johngalt wrote:Now that we seem to be in a full swing pilot shortage is anyone seeing a pay increase or is the shortage been overhyped?

703 and 704 operators that fly navajo and kingairs are still asking for 1000 to 1500 hours to get on.

I think the pilot shortage is way overhyped.
I know of a Navajo operator that is upgrading 500-600 hour pilots because they can't find people to fill the left seat from outside. I don't think it's overhyped at all. I know a ton of people all joining the regionals with hours in the low to mid teens. That is the 703/704 bread and butter for left seat pilots.
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watermeth
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by watermeth »

shortage in mom and pop ops certainly : low timers have understood that the shortest way to airlines is the regional way and not the mom and pop way anymore.
the former shows that pilots will always manage to get a low pay whatever the path.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by goingnowherefast »

The place to look first is medivac. They typically require ATPL and 2000TT. With the regionals hiring turbine FOs at 1500 hours, there's going to be a serious lack of upgrade-able pilots that meet contract requirements. Medivac lifestyle is usually compensated for with higher pay, but eventually most find it's just not worth it in the long run.
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valleyboy
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by valleyboy »

I know of a Navajo operator that is upgrading 500-600 hour pilots because they can't find people to fill the left seat from outside.
That's not entirely true. It makes more economic sense to upgrade than hire off the street. Still lots of people looking for jobs at 1000 hrs but then as soon as they get their ATP they bail. In that short of time one can't re-coop their training costs. It is also a fact that a 1000 hours still is not much time, especially if it's all right seat. It makes far more sense and easier to upgrade a 500 pilot that has been in a company and knows the aircraft and operation and PCC's are simple and lots of fodder in that market.

Training bonds or some other formula of protection is a must for the operator, WHY, Because guys will continue to clamour and prostitute themselves for that first 1500 hours. Salaries will not increase substantially because there will never be a stable group of pilots in the 703 and even 704 world, even in bad times. This because it takes years to recover from the insanity of the peak cycles. There are a few carriers out there with no training bonds and work on a bonus system rather than a training bond but at the end of the day as long as pilots chase the iron pay and working conditions will not get better soon. It is what it is and nothing is going to change it. We can whine and complain all we want but we as a group have given the mom and pop operators the excuse and the tools to pay crap. It's the biggest dog chasing it's tail around. Suck it up boys, do your time and if you don't make the cut and 703-/04 looks like it might be a lifer situation my only advise is get out or stay single. :mrgreen:
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KAG
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by KAG »

Ask this question in 3 more years and you'll get a different answer. With WJ and AC about to really ramp up hiring, and some top end airline pilots taking contracts for huge money overseas, its going to be a good time to be a pilot. We aren't really feeling the shortage yet, but we will.
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by Rowdy »

Navajo operators upgrading people into the left seat with 6-7 hundred hours. People feeling hard done by that they need to have 1000-1500hrs to operate a king air.. Jazz hiring from the 1500hr mark. Encore hiring the same with their 'flightpath' program..

Not even five years ago, those king air jobs were going to guys and gals with 3-5k.. The navajo jobs 2000hrs.. Jazz in the +3k range and encore was just a twinkle in Saretskys eye. Has pay changed? Nope. Its actually lower.

Have the operators painted themselves into a corner? Time will tell. Sooner or later. Time will tell.
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marakii
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by marakii »

Rowdy wrote:Navajo operators upgrading people into the left seat with 6-7 hundred hours. People feeling hard done by that they need to have 1000-1500hrs to operate a king air.. Jazz hiring from the 1500hr mark. Encore hiring the same with their 'flightpath' program..

Not even five years ago, those king air jobs were going to guys and gals with 3-5k.. The navajo jobs 2000hrs.. Jazz in the +3k range and encore was just a twinkle in Saretskys eye. Has pay changed? Nope. Its actually lower.

Have the operators painted themselves into a corner? Time will tell. Sooner or later. Time will tell.
I've talked to few guys in the 500-700 hour TT range and they haven't been called for anything, like perimeter or PASCO or thunder and the rest.

Shortage? Not a whole lot now but 3 years from now who knows.

Don't even talk about salaries, at places like Jazz and Sky and even Porter is not great. 90 pilots left Porter for AC and West jet.

Like you say time will let us know. I wonder how many schools will be losing instructors to the 703s.
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bearitus
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by bearitus »

Definitely no shortage for lower hour (<1500) guys. Just look at all the ad views for each 703 FO position posted on here. Entry level jobs still pay at or below minimum wage for many.
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marakii
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by marakii »

bearitus wrote:Definitely no shortage for lower hour (<1500) guys. Just look at all the ad views for each 703 FO position posted on here. Entry level jobs still pay at or below minimum wage for many.
So the low timers are going to have to wait about 3 years and more to get even in a 704 gig. So the instructor movement will also be slow. Not in a great position if you have less than 1000-1500 TT.
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We_tu_lo
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by We_tu_lo »

Rowdy wrote:Navajo operators upgrading people into the left seat with 6-7 hundred hours. People feeling hard done by that they need to have 1000-1500hrs to operate a king air.. Jazz hiring from the 1500hr mark. Encore hiring the same with their 'flightpath' program..

Not even five years ago, those king air jobs were going to guys and gals with 3-5k.. The navajo jobs 2000hrs.. Jazz in the +3k range and encore was just a twinkle in Saretskys eye. Has pay changed? Nope. Its actually lower.

Have the operators painted themselves into a corner? Time will tell. Sooner or later. Time will tell.
Sick Command & Conquer Red Alert reference, bro
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Commonwealth
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by Commonwealth »

Sick Command & Conquer Red Alert reference, bro
Can I have some shoes? :)
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Black_Tusk
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by Black_Tusk »

marakii wrote:
Don't even talk about salaries, at places like Jazz and Sky and even Porter is not great. 90 pilots left Porter for AC and West jet.

Like you say time will let us know. I wonder how many schools will be losing instructors to the 703s.
I made $4200 before taxes my first month on line at a regional... yeah with O/T but it certainly didn't feel like it. Not terrible.
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BeaverDreamer
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by BeaverDreamer »

As regional jobs are requiring less and less experience, low timers are more and more willing to take a crap wage to get a foot in the door. Nearly every 200 hour wonder wants the fastest possible path to the airlines and are willing to do anything to get it. For some reason they don't care what they make as long as they can get their ATPL and be gone in 2 years. Unfortunately this same group of pilots will be willing to further degrade themselves for a chance at a job at the majors once (if) hiring ramps up. It's rather sad, as there likely will be a pilot shortage and yet we still might not see a wage increase as so many seem to be okay with very low pay.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by goingnowherefast »

Black_Tusk wrote:I made $4200 before taxes my first month on line at a regional... yeah with O/T but it certainly didn't feel like it. Not terrible.
And your job flying that jet used to be done by mainline pilots making more money, better WAWCON, more time off and a better lifestyle.
Every single Jazz contract has had concessions, that's certantly not a pay increase.
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DrSpaceman
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by DrSpaceman »

Black_Tusk wrote:I made $4200 before taxes my first month on line at a regional... yeah with O/T but it certainly didn't feel like it. Not terrible.
Might not be terrible but it's definitely nothing to write home about, especially if you need overtime to achieve that. Regionals were never top pay but it's never been as bad as it is now. Hopefully you guys can negotiate better as the pilot supply dries a bit.
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Black_Tusk
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by Black_Tusk »

I agree to a point. Do I wish it was like it used to be? Sure, anyone would prefer to get paid more and have better benefits. But I also realize I can't change anything by sitting on the outside looking in.

At the end of the day this job is better than what I had before and I was fortunate to work for a pretty darn good 703 operator. I get to fly a nice airplane, make more money, live in my home city, have a pretty good schedule, stay in nice hotels, actually get paid per diems, have good medical coverage and benefits, and can look forward to a reasonably quick upgrade into the left seat.
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Meatservo
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Re: Is anyone seeing pay increases?

Post by Meatservo »

Well, unless Sunwing finds a way to hire kids before they get their pilot's licenses, I would say we've just about hit the bottom of what employers will be able to do to avoid giving pay rises.
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