Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

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johngalt
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Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by johngalt » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:22 am

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/calg ... -1.4077103

Interesting news. So now there will be three pilot groups at wj?
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flyer 1492
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by flyer 1492 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:32 am

I guess that means that WestJet and Encore employees are considered the HIGH price help. Here we go again with companies driving down the wages and working conditions.

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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by MrWings » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:37 am

To offer lower fares, don't you have to cut something?

You are already paying for baggage. You are already paying for in-flight entertainment. You are already paying for food. You already have no leg or shoulder room.

What more can the cut? No more bag of pretzels?

Or is it the wages that will be cut?
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by ipilot54 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:57 am

Perhaps this?
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by infiniteregulus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:03 am

This is frankly a complete garbage insult to the entire industry. Is it truly necessary to degrade flying to the same level as taking the bus?? Obviously there's going to be concessions and aggressive cost cutting (like the previous poster mentioned). They make a joke of their safety briefings and now they make a joke of our profession. Shame on WestJet - they have, and are continuing, to bring down this industry!
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by J31 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:16 am

737 Max 8 with sculptured interior and 200 Slimline 29" pitch seats
Smiles....FREE :smt040
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by kilpicki » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:21 am

Don't apply for a pilot position, don't book a ticket.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by FlyingMonkey » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:44 am

infiniteregulus wrote:This is frankly a complete garbage insult to the entire industry. Is it truly necessary to degrade flying to the same level as taking the bus?? Obviously there's going to be concessions and aggressive cost cutting (like the previous poster mentioned). They make a joke of their safety briefings and now they make a joke of our profession. Shame on WestJet - they have, and are continuing, to bring down this industry!
You're an idiot.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by infiniteregulus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:51 am

Please elaborate
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by ditar » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:55 am

I wonder how much it'll cost to use the toilet.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by pollyperkins » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:47 am

infiniteregulus wrote:Please elaborate
Because you obviously know nothing about operating an airline in an extremely cost competitive environment. I ask you - How many airlines have come and gone trying to do business in an environment with the price of fuel, manpower cost expectations, maintenance costs and foreign exchange (CAN vs US $$$) all stacked against us.

I will not get into operating margins but you must know that operating costs are a huge cut into margins.

As pilots we always complain about poor pay but you now balk at a situation that could ensure the viability of continued airline/pilot success in Canada.

If the idea of a "bus in the sky" doesn't appeal to you then maybe you should try to start up another Wardair and see how far you get - those days are gone.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by FICU » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:14 am

And as soon as New Leaf disappears this new venture will be shelved.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by Stu Pidasso » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:35 am

This is frankly a complete garbage insult to the entire industry. Is it truly necessary to degrade flying to the same level as taking the bus?? Obviously there's going to be concessions and aggressive cost cutting (like the previous poster mentioned). They make a joke of their safety briefings and now they make a joke of our profession. Shame on WestJet - they have, and are continuing, to bring down this industry!

Truer words were never said ! WestJet started the race to the bottom, Encore wages and now this perpetuate it. WestJet took all the people from the Greyhound bus shelter and brought them to the Airport.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by oldtimer » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:59 am

We are all slamming WestJet for their ultra low cost carrier and how it may affect the pilots and the employees but we must not forget that all this is driven by the consumers. Someone mentioned the bus passengers and it is these former bus passengers who want champagne service for beer prices and are so used to indignities that they accept it as part of the price of travel.
Maybe the consumers will now start having to paying higher fees to park their cars and trucks. Maybe there will be more and bigger parking meters at the drop off gates, Maybe there will be a coin slot in the baggage carts, Maybe there will be a fee to enter the terminal building. What will it cost to de-contaminate the area when some garlic eater farts and stinks up the joint?
Maybe there will no longer be any free stuff.
Am I in a Walter Mitty dream world to think that the above fees collected by the Airport Authority will be passed on to the airlines as a reduction in fees to the airlines. I think not.
What will happen if (heaven forbid) there is an incident like the one with United. Will the ultra low cost airline aggressively fight the lawsuit with little regard for the bad publicity it will generate? How much will the ultra low cost airline compensate a bumped passenger? $300:00 or a Timmys $20:00 gift card and have a nice day? How much compensation will the airlines provide for lost or damaged luggage?
That sure appears to be what the consumers want.
But more importantly, how much of this new attitude and cost cutting measures to the consumer will be passed on to the flight crews?
Does anyone know or are we all just guessing?
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by infiniteregulus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:03 am

Firstly, I don't see calling names having any productive merit. I appreciate the elaboration so as to have a conversation on this matter.

I don't exclude the economics of airline margins, but the exact question of WHERE these lower operating costs will come from must be asked. It's my understanding that margins are in the ballpark of sub 2% which isn't much wiggle room. EVERYTHING has a cost, and like it's been said by others, the cost of fuel, airplanes, maintenance, parts, etc, are essentially fixed, so the only real avenue of change would be labour (and high capacity configurations, though that's relative). It would be great to find an alternative method, but when it comes down to it, management's job everyday is to care for the company's bottom line and guess what the easy way out is? Labour. As for pilots, we operate the machines, regardless of what colours are painted on the outside, and as a pilot, you're damn straight I'm concerned about OUR bottomline. The balancing dilemma is employment vs wages. And I'm sorry but flying a plane is nowhere near the same level of technical skill and training as a bus driver, and why on earth one would assimilate ourselves to that fact is beyond me. We should have a little pride. This "situation" does not seem like a "pilot success" to me, but a failure on ALL our part. It boils down to fear and not standing up for what we're worth. Heck we'll all be replaced by robots in the future by some capacity anyway...are you still going to justify the cost savings on that??

Economics works not only for the paying public but also for the workforce as well. The effect of this will undoubtedly ripple to every company in the country. Say goodbye to all the pilots at Flair/New Leaf, bye bye wages and conditions at Rouge, Georgian, Sky, Jazz, EVAS, Porter upon which were vigorously fought to at minimum maintain. I know for fact that Encore's very inception is directly responsible for the lowered contracts at Jazz, Georgian, Sky, and partly Rouge...I know because I was part of the negotiations table.
I don't work for WestJet, however, I do work as a pilot, and this in turn effects me and every single one of us. And if this is something that can be prevented, I'm surely going to voice my opinion. My wife just finished school and her entry level job right out of school (nothing technical in any capacity) pays more than what I make after 10 years of working. And we're going to willfully lower it even more? I'm sorry but that's just insane. Why must a company's success be on our backs? Who knows, in the end WestJet may very have the wages stay the same, but I'd sure ask the question when the vote comes out. Anyhow...my opinion. Rant over, back to work haha :rolleyes:
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by confusedalot » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:11 am

FICU wrote:And as soon as New Leaf disappears this new venture will be shelved.
That's how I see it as well. It's been done before.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:22 pm

oldtimer wrote:We are all slamming WestJet for their ultra low cost carrier and how it may affect the pilots and the employees but we must not forget that all this is driven by the consumers.
It's not what I want, as one consumer.. I'm flying to Asia twice this year, and for the first time I've ditched AC and am flying Cathay. AC with their HD 777 went over my personal line. Lotta horrible reviews too. When air travel slows with the economy, lets see how well that strategy works.

Won't catch me on Rouge or WJ's product if I can help it, and I'll gladly give my money to foreign carriers. All about the space for me.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by Shiny Side Up » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:31 pm

I think O'Leary said that Europeans will crawl backwards naked over broken glass for cheaper air fares. I suspect Canadians will too. They may complain a lot more about it, but they will still buy the tickets.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by Cat Driver » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:41 pm

And I'm sorry but flying a plane is nowhere near the same level of technical skill and training as a bus driver,
That to a certain degree is true, however when you look at the training time required to become a commercial pilot and the low standards to qualify for flight training flying is not exactly rocket science either.

The wages a pilot makes are directly driven by what a pilot considers they are worth.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by Koalemos » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:02 pm

I do have to chuckle at the social media reaction from passengers. They love the idea of lower fares ... but want more leg room, free bags, food, and of course better service. :rolleyes:

Judging by the Encore startup, they will no doubt try to hire at 10% lower than industry standard pay with shit working rules. And will try to pass it off as required, but will improve (some time?). The Koolaid is free tho.

Makes me sad for the industry. Hopefully I'm proven wrong. There are worse outfits out there to work for (and how sad is that????).
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by bigEh » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:36 pm

I assume anyone complaining about a low cost airline never buys anything from Walmart, Amazon, Best Buy etc....The general public wants to pay less. For everything. And fair enough. But the byproduct of that is cutting wages. Retail jobs have taken a nose dive in pay, benefits and working conditions. So if you care about "the race to the bottom" anyone complaining about this new ULCC just shouldn't fly it. And should convince their friends and family to not fly it. And then stop buying from big business and go out and support your local shop owner. And never buy anything unless the workers are paid a fair wage. Your cost of living will go up but you will have made a difference.
My point is, this is the world we live in. People want to pay less. And if someone can create a service that does just that, then people will pay less.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:39 pm

No business model in history has ever succeeded on price alone -- in the very long run.

Someone can always undercut you and there is zero loyalty.

Someone will figure that out in the airline world, too.

I will not fly certain airlines at any price -- like Sunwing, Ryanair, Spirit. I suggest voting with your wallet to communicate to these models; what time and aggravation are worth. (Sadly, not much it seems).

Anyway, this is good news and I'm not complaining. It will force the overall mainline pricing down. There is not enough competition in Canada and we should open skies to allow foreign competitors in, if a reciprocal can be reached. I highly doubt AC and WJ would want that though.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by Koalemos » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:49 pm

bigEh wrote:I assume anyone complaining about a low cost airline never buys anything from Walmart, Amazon, Best Buy etc....The general public wants to pay less. For everything. And fair enough. But the byproduct of that is cutting wages. Retail jobs have taken a nose dive in pay, benefits and working conditions. So if you care about "the race to the bottom" anyone complaining about this new ULCC just shouldn't fly it. And should convince their friends and family to not fly it. And then stop buying from big business and go out and support your local shop owner. And never buy anything unless the workers are paid a fair wage. Your cost of living will go up but you will have made a difference.
My point is, this is the world we live in. People want to pay less. And if someone can create a service that does just that, then people will pay less.
I buy from Amazon, and will complain anyways. The drawbacks of online, warehouse style companies (or anything big business that pays crap) is an entirely different can of worms :lol:

You do make a good point, this practice is in a lot of industries, and is a byproduct of a free market. That can be good and bad, there will always be winners and losers. Given that ticket prices are the lowest they have ever been (adjusted for inflation), the savings will undoubtedly come from labour (not sure what else they can cut out from service, at this point). In this case, WestJet's ULCC employees will be on the losing side.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by Zaibatsu » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:51 pm

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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier

Post by cap41 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:54 pm

People bitch about service, they also bitch about their wages and working conditions. Last time I checked no one was forcing you to do the job you do. No one is forcing you to work for XXX company. If you don't like it, move onto the next one. Its a free market ind as passengers and pilots.
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