Which airports in Canada want you to monitor Tower and which ones want you to call "ready" at the hold short line?
To start with, I know that Vancouver and Toronto (CYYZ) want you to monitor tower and not call "ready". Any others?
Also, IMO, when you are at the hold short line there is no need to say "holding short". When ATC tells you to "contact tower holding short of RWY 08R", this is not a hold short clearance. He is just telling you to switch to tower frequency when you are at the hold short line. ATC knows that you are holding short because you are required to hold short of any runway, active or not, whether you are told to hold short or not.
All you need to say at the hold short line is "ready 08R". I try to avoid using the word "takeoff", unless I am cleared for takeoff.
Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
How do you know that Vancouver and Toronto want you to monitor? I haven't seen anything published to that effect.
If they say contact tower, I'll contact. If they say monitor, I'll monitor.
And actually all you need to say at the hold short line is "ready". ICAO Doc 4444 12-19 and Doc 9432 4-6.
If they say contact tower, I'll contact. If they say monitor, I'll monitor.
And actually all you need to say at the hold short line is "ready". ICAO Doc 4444 12-19 and Doc 9432 4-6.
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
From my limited experience in Toronto, ground will tell you to "monitor tower" not "contact tower".
In Vancouver on the page that has the coded taxi routes, they tell you to monitor tower at the hold short line. Ground does not tell you when to switch to tower.
Good point about calling "ready" rather than "ready 08R". I'll go with that.
In Vancouver on the page that has the coded taxi routes, they tell you to monitor tower at the hold short line. Ground does not tell you when to switch to tower.
Good point about calling "ready" rather than "ready 08R". I'll go with that.
-
co-joe
- Rank 11
- Posts: 4581
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
- Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
Good question. I've found in YYC just pull up, switch to tower and they'll call you. If you do that at YEG you'll be waiting a long long time. Almost indefinitely.
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
At a busy airport, I always monitor. At no point with a conga line departing YVR or YYC have I ever been asked if I was on frequency or my position/readiness. I have, however, heard the collective eye rolling from tower, the guy on short final, the guy holding across the runway next in sequence, and everyone else in the line when somebody calls tower ready to go. Like, no shit Sherlock... I was watching the game between the last takeoff and landing clearance and didn't see YOU!!
Dead airports.. if I don't hear anything for a few seconds I'll give them a call. Sometimes they'll clear you on the ground frequency. You never know.
Dead airports.. if I don't hear anything for a few seconds I'll give them a call. Sometimes they'll clear you on the ground frequency. You never know.
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
Some airports will do that, but you are supposed to call ready.
Some will ask if you are ready, because you didn't call ready. They wouldn't have to do that if you called ready.
Some will ask if you are ready, because you didn't call ready. They wouldn't have to do that if you called ready.
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
And when you call "ready" don't forget to say "in sequence " so tower doesn't put you ahead of everyone else
Last edited by av8ts on Tue May 02, 2017 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
confusedalot
- Rank 8
- Posts: 959
- Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
- Location: location, location, is what matters
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
Yeah, you'd figure after decades that nav canada would come up with a national standard, instead it is left to personal experience with differing procceses at different airports.
Anyways, as others have said, just listen veeery carefully to what the ground guy says, and dig deep into whatever fine print you may find on the jepp charts.
kinda silly situation really.
Anyways, as others have said, just listen veeery carefully to what the ground guy says, and dig deep into whatever fine print you may find on the jepp charts.
kinda silly situation really.
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
-
Say Again, Over!
- Rank 0
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:54 pm
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
Confusedalot,
Why do you need a national standard where common sense is enough? If you're alone and are told to contact tower, then CONTACT TOWER! If you're alone and get to the hold line after being told to monitor.... MONITOR. If you're number 8 in the departure line-up with constant arrivals and you hear tower is busy squeezing departures in between each arrival, SHUSH! He knows you're there and will call you when your time comes.
Kinda silly discussion, really.
Why do you need a national standard where common sense is enough? If you're alone and are told to contact tower, then CONTACT TOWER! If you're alone and get to the hold line after being told to monitor.... MONITOR. If you're number 8 in the departure line-up with constant arrivals and you hear tower is busy squeezing departures in between each arrival, SHUSH! He knows you're there and will call you when your time comes.
Kinda silly discussion, really.
Felix
YUL ACC
QB & OW TCU
YUL ACC
QB & OW TCU
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
I don't think i've ever heard "monitor Tower ready for takeoff" or words to that effect. The ground controller always says to "contact Tower on xxx.xx ready for takeoff."
Before the Hold Short phraseology with mandatory readbacks came in, I used to say "[ident] ready at [taxiway]" and if there was an aircraft on final i'd add "with the traffic on final." Now I rarely comment on traffic on final, because once I call ready the standard is for them to acknowledge and tell me to hold short, which I then have to acknowledge. I do still say "[ident] ready for immediate at [taxiway]" if it looks like the student in the 172 on final is more than a mile out. It can't hurt. If they give it to me, I save another minute of gas. A lot of the time I do get the immediate departure.
Before the Hold Short phraseology with mandatory readbacks came in, I used to say "[ident] ready at [taxiway]" and if there was an aircraft on final i'd add "with the traffic on final." Now I rarely comment on traffic on final, because once I call ready the standard is for them to acknowledge and tell me to hold short, which I then have to acknowledge. I do still say "[ident] ready for immediate at [taxiway]" if it looks like the student in the 172 on final is more than a mile out. It can't hurt. If they give it to me, I save another minute of gas. A lot of the time I do get the immediate departure.
-
confusedalot
- Rank 8
- Posts: 959
- Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
- Location: location, location, is what matters
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
Did not mean to affect any's sensibilities.........ooops.Say Again, Over! wrote:Confusedalot,
Why do you need a national standard where common sense is enough? If you're alone and are told to contact tower, then CONTACT TOWER! If you're alone and get to the hold line after being told to monitor.... MONITOR. If you're number 8 in the departure line-up with constant arrivals and you hear tower is busy squeezing departures in between each arrival, SHUSH! He knows you're there and will call you when your time comes.
Kinda silly discussion, really.
4 decades and hundreds of visits to airports give me the sense of what ats wants at any particular place. And even I am/was unsure at times of exactly what comm process was expected of me. So I'll claim diminished cognitive ability. (some just don't get it
)However, this thread has been populated a fair amount, so I am only guessing that there is some uncertainty out there.
Live and let live.
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
As a fresh CPL holder I enjoy these kind of discussions. I also strongly disagree with "sayagainover", leaving it to common sense as you say is quite subjective and leaves room for interpretation and could eventually lead to mistakes. Wouldn'it be easier anyway to have a clear standard no matter which airport you are departing from ?
-
Dutchpilotguy
- Rank 2
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:57 pm
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
Hi all:
It's been AGES since I chimed in on a forum and so this one is it because it seems interesting 'n' such.
I've seen some reference to a 'national standard'. As I sit here awkwardly in the dark at home posting and watching M*A*S*H, I do not have a copy of MATS phraseology on hand. However, I like to think mine is pretty sharp so I'll say that the 'national standard' is:
Eg: (AC Ident), runway xx, wind (may be omitted below 15kts), altimeter xx.xx. Taxi via (route). Contact tower (freq) holding short"
I consider the "holding short" as the clearance limit, and without it my fear is that the pilot may interpret the clearance limit as "runway...". It seems like cheap insurance to use it...
What I see most people mentioning are "ism" or nuance related. Some airports are certainly going to have varying scenarios/circumstances. Here are some light hearted example that I encounter:
If I were to issue the above taxi instruction to any of the large carriers that operate within Europe or Asia, 98.6233333 times out of 100 (I tried to reduce it to the lowest common denominator...), they will call tower nearly immediately, even with MILES of taxi to go. An "ism" is to issue taxi instructions, monitor their taxi as with any other, and issue the contact instructions when you no longer have potential conflicts, hot spots or potential for deviations. To avoid "forgetting" and to keep my premiums on cheap insurance low, I issue a taxi routing with a hold short point that represents one of those last potential spots, and then when closer I issue the remainder and the contact instructions as to reduce the potentials all around.
As for the "monitor tower", for me, I usually only issue this when it is readily apparent that your calling the twr freq would be exceedingly useless to you, and potentially irritating to the tower controller. Example: a runway change is occurring; you'll be the first at the new runway but are unable to depart until the last remaining arrivals on the old runway are down, or there is an apparent delay that makes it impossible for you to depart. I like to preface this with a little bit of insight. Eg: "traffic landing prior to your departure, monitor tower [freq] holding short" (cheap insurance remains...). On my end, I'm saying to the twr 'troller: "hey that (ident) is monitoring you whenever you're ready for them"
Occasionally an opportunity presents itself where tower can take you NOW. In which case I utilize the TIME or LOCATION rule of comm transfer and say "[query if ready]contact tower now [freq].
A word of thought: as a tower controller I don't want people sitting and waiting any longer than need be. I will often reach out as aircraft pass the last potential conflict point/deviation point along the route of taxi, on the chance they are on the freq and ready to blast off. If that's the case, chances are I'm not reaching out to tell you to hold short, so please ensure you're fully ready, or you say something like: "we are on the frequency, but we need a moment" so I don't rattle you off a take-off clearance only to hear you tell me you're waiting on your final numbers, or are waiting on the back end... which when you tell me that almost always includes the clear chime in the background from the back and suddenly you're good to go!
As a quick point to the OP about whether or not stating that you are "holding short" is relevant, it is a best practice that avoids a lot of irritation. If it is at all unclear to me as a tower controller whether your are short or not, I will issue you a hold short and then I will hurry up and wait for you to read it back. Chiming in saying "ready, holding short runway xx" a simple "Roger" from me checks the box.
At any rate, listening for what's said is chiefly important and if unclear, no harm in asking. Well, ok... usually no harm :p
Colonel Flagg just rolled into camp. Gotta go!
It's been AGES since I chimed in on a forum and so this one is it because it seems interesting 'n' such.
I've seen some reference to a 'national standard'. As I sit here awkwardly in the dark at home posting and watching M*A*S*H, I do not have a copy of MATS phraseology on hand. However, I like to think mine is pretty sharp so I'll say that the 'national standard' is:
Eg: (AC Ident), runway xx, wind (may be omitted below 15kts), altimeter xx.xx. Taxi via (route). Contact tower (freq) holding short"
I consider the "holding short" as the clearance limit, and without it my fear is that the pilot may interpret the clearance limit as "runway...". It seems like cheap insurance to use it...
What I see most people mentioning are "ism" or nuance related. Some airports are certainly going to have varying scenarios/circumstances. Here are some light hearted example that I encounter:
If I were to issue the above taxi instruction to any of the large carriers that operate within Europe or Asia, 98.6233333 times out of 100 (I tried to reduce it to the lowest common denominator...), they will call tower nearly immediately, even with MILES of taxi to go. An "ism" is to issue taxi instructions, monitor their taxi as with any other, and issue the contact instructions when you no longer have potential conflicts, hot spots or potential for deviations. To avoid "forgetting" and to keep my premiums on cheap insurance low, I issue a taxi routing with a hold short point that represents one of those last potential spots, and then when closer I issue the remainder and the contact instructions as to reduce the potentials all around.
As for the "monitor tower", for me, I usually only issue this when it is readily apparent that your calling the twr freq would be exceedingly useless to you, and potentially irritating to the tower controller. Example: a runway change is occurring; you'll be the first at the new runway but are unable to depart until the last remaining arrivals on the old runway are down, or there is an apparent delay that makes it impossible for you to depart. I like to preface this with a little bit of insight. Eg: "traffic landing prior to your departure, monitor tower [freq] holding short" (cheap insurance remains...). On my end, I'm saying to the twr 'troller: "hey that (ident) is monitoring you whenever you're ready for them"
Occasionally an opportunity presents itself where tower can take you NOW. In which case I utilize the TIME or LOCATION rule of comm transfer and say "[query if ready]contact tower now [freq].
A word of thought: as a tower controller I don't want people sitting and waiting any longer than need be. I will often reach out as aircraft pass the last potential conflict point/deviation point along the route of taxi, on the chance they are on the freq and ready to blast off. If that's the case, chances are I'm not reaching out to tell you to hold short, so please ensure you're fully ready, or you say something like: "we are on the frequency, but we need a moment" so I don't rattle you off a take-off clearance only to hear you tell me you're waiting on your final numbers, or are waiting on the back end... which when you tell me that almost always includes the clear chime in the background from the back and suddenly you're good to go!
As a quick point to the OP about whether or not stating that you are "holding short" is relevant, it is a best practice that avoids a lot of irritation. If it is at all unclear to me as a tower controller whether your are short or not, I will issue you a hold short and then I will hurry up and wait for you to read it back. Chiming in saying "ready, holding short runway xx" a simple "Roger" from me checks the box.
At any rate, listening for what's said is chiefly important and if unclear, no harm in asking. Well, ok... usually no harm :p
Colonel Flagg just rolled into camp. Gotta go!
Dutch
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
The proper phraseology is "ABC123 holding short of 35R on Bravo ready to depart in sequence with the traffic on final visual."
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
Well, since it's your first contact with tower, shouldn't you include your ident, type, position, ATIS received, altitude, intentions, and destination?ditar wrote:The proper phraseology is "ABC123 holding short of 35R on Bravo ready to depart in sequence with the traffic on final visual."
-
rotorspeed
- Rank 4
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:50 pm
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
When I flew out of yvr doing training I was told anytime youre told hold short you had to repeat it. At cypk they just say ready at hold short Line
-
Dutchpilotguy
- Rank 2
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:57 pm
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
Do you have a reference for that?ditar wrote:The proper phraseology is "ABC123 holding short of 35R on Bravo ready to depart in sequence with the traffic on final visual."
If you're on the ground... generally speaking, all redundant words once you arrive at the runway. As a tower guy I already know all of that because you told ground.NotDirty! wrote:Well, since it's your first contact with tower, shouldn't you include your ident, type, position, ATIS received, altitude, intentions, and destination?ditar wrote:The proper phraseology is "ABC123 holding short of 35R on Bravo ready to depart in sequence with the traffic on final visual."
Dutch
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
You forgot to add "Please advise of any conflicting traffic"ditar wrote:The proper phraseology is "ABC123 holding short of 35R on Bravo ready to depart in sequence with the traffic on final visual."
Re: Monitor Tower or call "Ready" at the hold short line
CAR 106.03Dutchpilotguy wrote:Do you have a reference for that?ditar wrote:The proper phraseology is "ABC123 holding short of 35R on Bravo ready to depart in sequence with the traffic on final visual."
-
Dutchpilotguy
- Rank 2
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:57 pm
