"Prefer a Tired Pilot to An Inexperienced one"

[groundpilot]

'Personally, I prefer a tired pilot in the cockpit to an inexperienced one.'

- John McKenna, president of the Air Transport Association of Canada

"The country is already dealing with a pilot shortage, said John McKenna, president of the Air Transport Association of Canada. He estimates the proposed regulations could increase the demand for pilots by up to 30 per cent, meaning less experienced pilots could be hired to meet the demand.

"There already aren't enough pilots around as it is," he said. "So it's a concern for us ... that it is putting a lot of pressure on training pilots quicker and getting them in the pilot seats maybe with less hours on their books than they would have had five, six years ago."

Fatigue needs to be managed and he's not saying no to changes, but "what's the rush?" he asked. Existing safety management systems already have a handle on this."

If there ever was a time for pilots to get together and flame someone on a serious issue...this would be it. Guys like this seriously harm the profession

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/otta ... -1.4148201

[moocow]

What in the fudge?! If they already proven that a sleepy driver operate at the same level as a drunk driver. How in the hell can this industry representative state that a tired pilot is preferred over an inexperienced one? Yes, I know there were accidents caused by inexperienced pilots but there are also accidents caused by tired pilots.

[daedalusx]

Absolutely disagree. I'll take a 500 hrs FO that is sharp and fit over a 5000 hrs one that hasn't slept in 24-48 hours. Anyone who's ever done a late medevac after being on call all day up north will agree that no matter how good a guy is, performance degrades severely after being up for so long and some very simple tasks might get forgotten...

[BE20 Driver]

Follow the money. This guy is a lobbyist that represents airlines and their interests. Of course he would rather have a tired under paid over worked employee at the controls. That means the companies he is paid to represent don't have to go out and hire another pilot.

Yes, pilots are coming in with less experience than they were 6 years ago. They are also being worked harder by the companies they work for. It's a two way street.

[valleyboy]

The CARS have these guys finger prints all over them - the present 703 regulations (lobbied by float and northern operators and ATAC) - it's absurd and it is all about the money. Look at what happened in the USA with ATP being required in the right seat. Salaries went up when they were forced to park aeroplanes and maybe that's what it will take here and yes I think stability would come here if we did the same thing. FDT and crew rest is the other big issue and it needs an over haul but what concerns me is the governments lack of resolve to fix an obvious problem they allowed to happen in the first place.
It's time Canada came out of the dark ages, and even pilots to admit that. I get so much push back from pilots who think they are invincible and that consider rest and being sharp on duty is not their problem and that others are pussies for thinking fatigue is an issue(these guys are usually on incentive pay) again back to the money.
I have full confidence that this will get screwed up as well, based on past performance. Just look of the mess created by our present system. Approach bans and ops specs, WTF -- ICAO had all the rules in place for years and Canada chooses to bastardize everything and turn out something that makes no sense at all, life north of 60 -- fill your boots -- LMFAOOOOooooo

[goingnowherefast]

In the Buffalo Q400 accident, the Captain had 3400 hours and the FO had 2400 hours. No Sullenberger, but not a low time crew either. The word "fatigue" is mentioned 284 times throughout the NTSB's report.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acc ... AR1001.pdf

[altiplano]

What a tool...

Rather a pilot asleep at the wheel?

I'd take a well trained crew member, low time or not, any day over that...

[Sulako]

I've flown with both and I'll take a new pilot over an exhausted one, 100 percent of the time.

Newbies sometimes make mistakes, but they can quickly learn from them and move forward. As the level of fatigue advances, tired pilots continue to make the same mistakes.

Inexperience generally doesn't kill most pilots. But fatigue can kill anyone, and it has.

[teacher]

This is the same guy that said "a pilot is not a pilot is not a pilot" and "Bush pilots are not the same as airline pilots and do not require the same fatigue rules."

I wish I could be a bush pilot and have the ability to require less sleep

He represents companies trying to maximize profits and keeps expenses as a low as possible Which is a good strategy for any business but needs to be balanced with safety.

With the same rules applied across the board no company will have the advantage. But yes, it'll make things more complicated but facts have proven that this is the right way to go!

[Blueontop]

"a pilot is not a pilot is not a pilot"

What does that even mean?...

[pdw]

Rather a pilot asleep at the wheel?

I'd take a well trained crew member, low time or not, any day over that...

If your putting it that way ...

Problem is who falls asleep on the way to the cockpit ? it happens after a while. Fatigue is illusive; who wants to 'admit' and succumb to a replacement option ? ...

.. but yeah ... absolutely, any well rested pilot in an hours pool including low has the edge in staying up (on everything covered in their job description) over THAT.

[telex]

I've flown with both and I'll take a new pilot over an exhausted one, 100 percent of the time.

Newbies sometimes make mistakes, but they can quickly learn from them and move forward. As the level of fatigue advances, tired pilots continue to make the same mistakes.

Inexperience generally doesn't kill most pilots. But fatigue can kill anyone, and it has.

Newbies sometimes make mistakes? But then they move forward? That might depend. Would you agree?

BUT, tired pilots continue to make the same mistakes?

So where does that leave a tired newbie with no experience to fall back on? Moving forward or making the same mistakes he doesn't even know he is making?

I will respectfully disagree with your position and choose the experienced pilot who can recognize a mistake over the inexperienced pilot.

If you believe Inexperience generally doesn't kill most pilots you need to start paying attention.

[sampsonmcd]

Its a shame we continue to let this happen to our industry. Those who do not stand for safety need to be removed. We all need to group together to improve working conditions across the board.

Majority of pilots agree with these fatigue issues, we just need to execute a plan to deal with it. Enough is enough.

[Meatservo]

Yeah. A good point made above. I would prefer well-rested AND experienced pilots. Pilot inexperience IS a problem. But unless someone fixes the pilot fatigue issue, all you will end up with is inexperienced AND sleepy pilots. They are separate issues entirely. There is almost nothing you can do to reduce inexperience. There are too many jobs and not enough ways to gain experience. There are many, many ways to make sure everyone can get some fucking sleep.

[confusedalot]

corporate greed may be an issue? I dunno.

can't think of too many employees in this big wide western world that would accept 14 hour days and one day off every 7 days as a norm. Obviously an 8 hour day would not be feasable in this business, but there certainly are remedies and adjustments to this situation.

But nooo.....the current state continues.....

[Inverted2]

Where I work the scheduling is heavily seniority oriented so the most junior and typically least experienced pilots get the most fatiguing schedules which are mostly the dreaded "stand ups".

[teacher]

"a pilot is not a pilot is not a pilot"

What does that even mean?...

He was stating that not all pilots are the same and airline rest rules should not apply to smaller carriers and bush operations.

I say all pilots are human and require the same amount of sleep and rest no matter what operation they work in!