Why is Flair so Hated?

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mbav8r
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by mbav8r » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:10 am

So you have more principles....but only to a point. Like as long as you have the luxury of making more doing something else, or as long as you can rationalize staying at Jazz because it had the "highest paid, best working conditions" when you you started, it's still a "great place to be", and the new contract was "forced on us". Then it's ok to keep the job. Got it.
Here's exactly what I was thinking and said out loud about the new contract, keeping in mind nothing changed for pilots who were currently on the list, if we vote yes there is a life line with a contract extension of the AC flying to 2025, that'll get about half the pilots to retirement, myself not included. I will have 10-12 years to go by then.
Next, and I did say this out loud, if pilots apply for the new pay, no one to blame but themselves.
The contract currently in place is still "the best", even the new pilots will be on the old pay scale after a three year delay, it might surprise you to know I'm planning on staying at Jazz and part of the new deal was the PML, which means sometime in the very near future I will have to decide, to stay with a three year pay cut or go to AC, as I've said planning on staying but could change my mind.
You are correct, it's foolish to think one person saying no can't change things but if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
At this point in my career, I'm just hoping to not have to decide where to start over, no doubt it is self serving but I did my part earlier on trying to make it better, for every time I said no, ten said yes, so to heck with it.
It's a losing battle and you've all convinced me, I'm going to lobby the union for pay cuts enough to get the work we've lost back from Sky and GGN but only for any pilot hired after me!
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by mbav8r » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:40 am

Flyinghigh wrote
All this, and yet you still accepted a position at Jazz for 36k when you started. Interesting, do we get to call you a scab for bringing down the industry?
I don't think I've used the word scab here, however to address your statement, the starting salary here was like you say 36k, it was within a couple k of AC starting pay which was about 38k, some seem to be missing the point. If other regional airlines were paying 50k and I took a job at 36k to take work from them, sure call me whatever you want.
I also want to point out, the first contract I voted on had huge improvements for the starting pay and some improvements at the the top, on a percentage increase the pay scale I was at, at the time was the smallest, I still voted yes because overall the improvements were good for most of the pilots.
Anyhow, as it's been pointed out this is not something that can be changed by a few pilots taking a stand and we all know the reality is for every one NO, there will be 10 who say yes.
Please, I am out of this conversation, so any posts directed to me will go unanswered, not being rude I'm just done.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by Black_Tusk » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:08 am

mbav8r wrote:
Next, and I did say this out loud, if pilots apply for the new pay, no one to blame but themselves.
Ok, so I am pro Jazz and talk highly of the company overall. I enjoy it and it's a great place to work, that I won't argue. But this sentence made me lose respect for you in a way. Tell me, where exactly is one to go if they want to climb their way to AC or WJ (Encore WAWCON is no better than Jazz)? The ladder is clearly marked out. Work 703, maybe 704, move on to a regional and then to mainline if you get the chance. So what, if the pay is too low we are supposed to keep working at the 703/704 level out of principle and hope to one day be lucky enough to get an interview at mainline?

The Sr. pilots threw the future new hires under the bus, that is just plain fact. Instead of taking a small percentage pay cut at the top end they chopped a way bigger piece off the bottom. It's just another example of how the older generations continue to @#$! the younger. And it wasn't just the pay. Let's talk about DC vs. DB pension, or how about the years of service being lost for Captain upgrades? Sure, I took the job knowing what it was so I can't complain, and at the end of the day I'm making a lot more than I expected to in my first year. But to say that it's the new hires fault for "taking the job" is bullshit and you know it.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by Meatservo » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:42 pm

A lot of you guys don't understand what a "scab" is. Stop using this term to describe ordinary workers who work for a non-unionized company. A scab is a worker, probably a member of the same union, that chooses to go to work as an employee of a company whose unionized workers are on strike, to perform the work of the strikers. If a unionized company charters an aircraft belonging to a non-unionized company, the pilots of that aircraft are not "scabs". They are "employees" who are flying their aircraft on a charter. Their own employer has a responsibility to find work for them to do. Stop trying to ratify your own career misfortunes by blaming the employees of another company who are doing their job. You might be legitimately disgruntled in your own situation, but some companies do not have unions, are doing perfectly fine without unions, and their mandate is simple: collect money for flying planes. Their employees don't owe you, the employee of a competitor, anything.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by goingnowherefast » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:01 pm

Black_Tusk wrote:So what, if the pay is too low we are supposed to keep working at the 703/704 level out of principle and hope to one day be lucky enough to get an interview at mainline?
Yes! Or wait until the regionals increase the pay. Lots of pilots have done just that. Life doesn't have to revolve around AC or WJ either.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by complexintentions » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:43 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Yes! Or wait until the regionals increase the pay. Lots of pilots have done just that. Life doesn't have to revolve around AC or WJ either.
Really? Lots of King Air drivers turning down jobs at Flair and Sky Regional because their "principles" won't allow such a demeaning move and they wish to protect the wages at AC and WS (whose pilots didn't exactly strike or quit en masse when both companies started up low cost divisions and impose lower-paying contracts)?

Yeah...no.

Some people may have declined jobs because they're unable to take the pay cut that goes from being a big fish in a little pond to a little fish in a big one. But to suggest that it's a tactical decision made to pressure wages is nonsense.

But hey if you're right, hope they can eat their "principles" while they wait for the regionals to increase the pay...could be a long wait...
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by Black_Tusk » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:02 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Black_Tusk wrote:So what, if the pay is too low we are supposed to keep working at the 703/704 level out of principle and hope to one day be lucky enough to get an interview at mainline?
Yes! Or wait until the regionals increase the pay. Lots of pilots have done just that. Life doesn't have to revolve around AC or WJ either.
Maybe for you. For me, I had the chance move home.. work for a good AC Express with the hope to move through in a few years. I took the job knowing what it was, but it still doesn't change that the Sr. Jazz pilots threw the future hires under the bus.

Not everyone wants to fly a B1900 around Northern Ontario while waiting for a call from AC or WJ, and I have no intention of flying corporate or 704 for the rest of my life. Some may be fine with that, but I pursued aviation with the intention of working for Air Canada.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by mbav8r » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:24 am

Black_Tusk wrote:
goingnowherefast wrote:
Black_Tusk wrote:So what, if the pay is too low we are supposed to keep working at the 703/704 level out of principle and hope to one day be lucky enough to get an interview at mainline?
Yes! Or wait until the regionals increase the pay. Lots of pilots have done just that. Life doesn't have to revolve around AC or WJ either.
Maybe for you. For me, I had the chance move home.. work for a good AC Express with the hope to move through in a few years. I took the job knowing what it was, but it still doesn't change that the Sr. Jazz pilots threw the future hires under the bus.

Not everyone wants to fly a B1900 around Northern Ontario while waiting for a call from AC or WJ, and I have no intention of flying corporate or 704 for the rest of my life. Some may be fine with that, but I pursued aviation with the intention of working for Air Canada.
Ok, this just pisses me off, the senior pilots threw the future hires under the bus! You have no clue, none whatsoever, you would not have a job at Jazz if we didn't sign this contract. That was made quite clear, no increase in flying with complete stagnation, a few retirements while we wait for the axe come 2020.
You think we should have shaved off the top to enable you to "choose" this route to AC, how about you take responsibility for your choice. My yes vote was simple and I've already said it, you have no one to blame but yourself for accepting the pay.
I will say this one more time so there is no mistake, this contract was the only way to a lifeline that included a reduction in covered aircraft, no guarantee of anything other than a reduction, ie; no need for new pilots, you think we should have taken a pay cut just in case they hire pilots down the road, sounds smart.
How about this for logic, I don't take a pay cut and you chose to stay where you were until they had no choice but to up the pay, we all win! Wait, I guess that only works in my utopia where pilots have self respect and principles.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:27 am

complexintentions wrote:
goingnowherefast wrote:
Yes! Or wait until the regionals increase the pay. Lots of pilots have done just that. Life doesn't have to revolve around AC or WJ either.
Really? Lots of King Air drivers turning down jobs at Flair and Sky Regional because their "principles" won't allow such a demeaning move and they wish to protect the wages at AC and WS (whose pilots didn't exactly strike or quit en masse when both companies started up low cost divisions and impose lower-paying contracts)?

Yeah...no.

Some people may have declined jobs because they're unable to take the pay cut that goes from being a big fish in a little pond to a little fish in a big one. But to suggest that it's a tactical decision made to pressure wages is nonsense.

But hey if you're right, hope they can eat their "principles" while they wait for the regionals to increase the pay...could be a long wait...
Lots of guys are able to take the pay cut, but are unwilling to. There's guys getting paid 70, 80, 100 grand who say "I'll go to ____ when the starting pay is 70 grand, until then I'm staying here" They'd be happy to spend a career outside the big airlines. It's usually not a self righteous decision, more like a 40-60% pay cut to live in a more expensive city and spend half your life in a hotel is a dumb lifestyle move. I know people don't like to hear it, but there are King Air captains getting paid more than Q400 captains.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by mbav8r » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:59 am

Complex, apparently something I'm lacking is self control, I'm not going to bother saying I'm done at the end of this post.
What does it matter the reason pilots would choose to not accept the wages on offer, be it lifestyle or principles, the net result could be the same if more did it.
I could argue, you would consider coming back to Canada if, say Air Canada offered you a direct entry Captain spot, you choosing to stay where you are is helping and the more pilots who leave the better it will get. When airlines are faced with parking aircraft they will find the money needed to get them moving.
I recently saw an ad for medevac Captain, starting salary 85k, that's 40k more than it was even 5 years ago, it may take a while but we've cancelled flights due to no crew and if that keeps happening, I suspect the pay will go up.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by '97 Tercel » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:27 am

Some of the total hours in Jazz cockpits right now are probably scary low. There are already some pilots that have refused to deadhead on a certain flight because of the inexperience of the crew flying.

I see DEC or significant pay increases a real possibility.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by atphat » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:44 am

'97 Tercel wrote:There are already some pilots that have refused to deadhead on a certain flight because of the inexperience of the crew flying.
Thread drift but this totally perked my interest. Jazz crews are refusing to deadhead on their own airline? Is this actually true?
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:11 am

I call bullsh!t on that.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by Pete » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:44 am

Can airlines like Jazz even entertain DEC job advertisements with unions in place? What do unions think of this? No dog in this fight...curious where airlines/unions stand on the possibility of, at some point going the DEC route.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by complexintentions » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:11 am

mbav8r wrote:Complex, apparently something I'm lacking is self control, I'm not going to bother saying I'm done at the end of this post.
What does it matter the reason pilots would choose to not accept the wages on offer, be it lifestyle or principles, the net result could be the same if more did it.
I could argue, you would consider coming back to Canada if, say Air Canada offered you a direct entry Captain spot, you choosing to stay where you are is helping and the more pilots who leave the better it will get. When airlines are faced with parking aircraft they will find the money needed to get them moving.
I recently saw an ad for medevac Captain, starting salary 85k, that's 40k more than it was even 5 years ago, it may take a while but we've cancelled flights due to no crew and if that keeps happening, I suspect the pay will go up.
I wouldn't really consider coming back to Canada for any job, as I've kind of grown used to seeing the world through a larger lens. Pay is only one consideration, far, far down the list. I don't think I could go back to the socialist Little Potato bullshit real estate money-laundering paradise for any amount of money. Love my family still there, love the natural beauty, couldn't care less about much else. Pretty much everything good about Canada exists due to the good fortune of being located on huge natural resources and next to the world's most powerful military/largest economy. Which is fine, except people get smug and act like it's their achievement.

Really my only input was an objection to referring to those who take jobs at lesser pay as "whores". You simply cannot equate your admittedly awful dues-paying experiences earning a buck an hour or whatever, to working at Flair or Sky. Your lack of control over the contract forced on you is no different from the level of control people have over wages anywhere, or of who invites them to an interview. Note that I am not one of the "senior pilots threw the junior under the bus" crowd. But that's the whole point - individuals have zero effect on forces far larger than themselves. All this to say: your enemy isn't other pilots.
Lots of guys are able to take the pay cut, but are unwilling to.
Semantics. Unable, unwilling, whatever. So one turboprop makes more than another. Who cares. You'll always make more money flying big airplanes than small ones in the long run. (Statistically insignificant niche exceptions aside). It's fine to prefer a 703/704 lifestyle, in fact it makes a lot of sense. But don't pretend that it's because you think you'll come out ahead financially in absolute terms. Quality of life, that's a different discussion. If a good job flying ANYTHING fits your situation and budget, nothing else matters.
There are already some pilots that have refused to deadhead on a certain flight because of the inexperience of the crew flying.
Oh please. So did these alleged non-flyers ask to see the crew's logbooks? I also call supreme bs on this one.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by Rowdy » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:23 pm

'97 Tercel wrote:Some of the total hours in Jazz cockpits right now are probably scary low. There are already some pilots that have refused to deadhead on a certain flight because of the inexperience of the crew flying.

I see DEC or significant pay increases a real possibility.
I'm pretty sure that was a jazz RJ crew that refused to DH on another carrier.. but you can keep up the bullshit :wink:

Pay and working conditions at all the express carriers need be improved. But we all know the operators will just cry foul to the minister and have flight training costs heavily subsidized instead.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by confusedalot » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:00 pm

Like many mini bombardiers?

Now that will be a sight to see.
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by Kosiw » Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:16 am

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... st-438955/

How long before this happens in Canada ?
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by Rowdy » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:08 pm

Its already happening!
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by Black_Tusk » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:38 am

mbav8r wrote: Wait, I guess that only works in my utopia where pilots have self respect and principles.
TIL, I have no self respect or principles. :lol:
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by atphat » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:43 am

TIL what TIL means
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by mbav8r » Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:35 pm

It's millennial text speak for, "today I learned", at least that's what google thinks it could be, in context it makes sense.
roflmao, ttyl mofos
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by Black_Tusk » Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:42 pm

mbav8r wrote:It's millennial text speak for, "today I learned", at least that's what google thinks it could be, in context it makes sense.
roflmao, ttyl mofos
Just out of curiosity, how old are you?
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by mbav8r » Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:44 pm

About 18 years from retiring
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Re: Why is Flair so Hated?

Post by Cat Driver » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:07 pm

Each generation have their own way of thinking and communicating and text speak is just the latest way.

Sometimes the message gets lost when another generation has no idea what they just read and just ignores it.
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