Why is Flair so Hated?

[complexintentions]

Yes! Or wait until the regionals increase the pay. Lots of pilots have done just that. Life doesn't have to revolve around AC or WJ either.

Really? Lots of King Air drivers turning down jobs at Flair and Sky Regional because their "principles" won't allow such a demeaning move and they wish to protect the wages at AC and WS (whose pilots didn't exactly strike or quit en masse when both companies started up low cost divisions and impose lower-paying contracts)?

Yeah...no.

Some people may have declined jobs because they're unable to take the pay cut that goes from being a big fish in a little pond to a little fish in a big one. But to suggest that it's a tactical decision made to pressure wages is nonsense.

But hey if you're right, hope they can eat their "principles" while they wait for the regionals to increase the pay...could be a long wait...

[Black_Tusk]

So what, if the pay is too low we are supposed to keep working at the 703/704 level out of principle and hope to one day be lucky enough to get an interview at mainline?

Yes! Or wait until the regionals increase the pay. Lots of pilots have done just that. Life doesn't have to revolve around AC or WJ either.

Maybe for you. For me, I had the chance move home.. work for a good AC Express with the hope to move through in a few years. I took the job knowing what it was, but it still doesn't change that the Sr. Jazz pilots threw the future hires under the bus.

Not everyone wants to fly a B1900 around Northern Ontario while waiting for a call from AC or WJ, and I have no intention of flying corporate or 704 for the rest of my life. Some may be fine with that, but I pursued aviation with the intention of working for Air Canada.

[mbav8r]

So what, if the pay is too low we are supposed to keep working at the 703/704 level out of principle and hope to one day be lucky enough to get an interview at mainline?

Yes! Or wait until the regionals increase the pay. Lots of pilots have done just that. Life doesn't have to revolve around AC or WJ either.

Maybe for you. For me, I had the chance move home.. work for a good AC Express with the hope to move through in a few years. I took the job knowing what it was, but it still doesn't change that the Sr. Jazz pilots threw the future hires under the bus.

Not everyone wants to fly a B1900 around Northern Ontario while waiting for a call from AC or WJ, and I have no intention of flying corporate or 704 for the rest of my life. Some may be fine with that, but I pursued aviation with the intention of working for Air Canada.

Ok, this just pisses me off, the senior pilots threw the future hires under the bus! You have no clue, none whatsoever, you would not have a job at Jazz if we didn't sign this contract. That was made quite clear, no increase in flying with complete stagnation, a few retirements while we wait for the axe come 2020.
You think we should have shaved off the top to enable you to "choose" this route to AC, how about you take responsibility for your choice. My yes vote was simple and I've already said it, you have no one to blame but yourself for accepting the pay.
I will say this one more time so there is no mistake, this contract was the only way to a lifeline that included a reduction in covered aircraft, no guarantee of anything other than a reduction, ie; no need for new pilots, you think we should have taken a pay cut just in case they hire pilots down the road, sounds smart.
How about this for logic, I don't take a pay cut and you chose to stay where you were until they had no choice but to up the pay, we all win! Wait, I guess that only works in my utopia where pilots have self respect and principles.

[goingnowherefast]

Yes! Or wait until the regionals increase the pay. Lots of pilots have done just that. Life doesn't have to revolve around AC or WJ either.

Really? Lots of King Air drivers turning down jobs at Flair and Sky Regional because their "principles" won't allow such a demeaning move and they wish to protect the wages at AC and WS (whose pilots didn't exactly strike or quit en masse when both companies started up low cost divisions and impose lower-paying contracts)?

Yeah...no.

Some people may have declined jobs because they're unable to take the pay cut that goes from being a big fish in a little pond to a little fish in a big one. But to suggest that it's a tactical decision made to pressure wages is nonsense.

But hey if you're right, hope they can eat their "principles" while they wait for the regionals to increase the pay...could be a long wait...

Lots of guys are able to take the pay cut, but are unwilling to. There's guys getting paid 70, 80, 100 grand who say "I'll go to ____ when the starting pay is 70 grand, until then I'm staying here" They'd be happy to spend a career outside the big airlines. It's usually not a self righteous decision, more like a 40-60% pay cut to live in a more expensive city and spend half your life in a hotel is a dumb lifestyle move. I know people don't like to hear it, but there are King Air captains getting paid more than Q400 captains.

[mbav8r]

Complex, apparently something I'm lacking is self control, I'm not going to bother saying I'm done at the end of this post.
What does it matter the reason pilots would choose to not accept the wages on offer, be it lifestyle or principles, the net result could be the same if more did it.
I could argue, you would consider coming back to Canada if, say Air Canada offered you a direct entry Captain spot, you choosing to stay where you are is helping and the more pilots who leave the better it will get. When airlines are faced with parking aircraft they will find the money needed to get them moving.
I recently saw an ad for medevac Captain, starting salary 85k, that's 40k more than it was even 5 years ago, it may take a while but we've cancelled flights due to no crew and if that keeps happening, I suspect the pay will go up.

['97 Tercel]

Some of the total hours in Jazz cockpits right now are probably scary low. There are already some pilots that have refused to deadhead on a certain flight because of the inexperience of the crew flying.

I see DEC or significant pay increases a real possibility.

[atphat]

There are already some pilots that have refused to deadhead on a certain flight because of the inexperience of the crew flying.

Thread drift but this totally perked my interest. Jazz crews are refusing to deadhead on their own airline? Is this actually true?

[PostmasterGeneral]

I call bullsh!t on that.

[Pete]

Can airlines like Jazz even entertain DEC job advertisements with unions in place? What do unions think of this? No dog in this fight...curious where airlines/unions stand on the possibility of, at some point going the DEC route.

[complexintentions]

Complex, apparently something I'm lacking is self control, I'm not going to bother saying I'm done at the end of this post.
What does it matter the reason pilots would choose to not accept the wages on offer, be it lifestyle or principles, the net result could be the same if more did it.
I could argue, you would consider coming back to Canada if, say Air Canada offered you a direct entry Captain spot, you choosing to stay where you are is helping and the more pilots who leave the better it will get. When airlines are faced with parking aircraft they will find the money needed to get them moving.
I recently saw an ad for medevac Captain, starting salary 85k, that's 40k more than it was even 5 years ago, it may take a while but we've cancelled flights due to no crew and if that keeps happening, I suspect the pay will go up.

I wouldn't really consider coming back to Canada for any job, as I've kind of grown used to seeing the world through a larger lens. Pay is only one consideration, far, far down the list. I don't think I could go back to the socialist Little Potato bullshit real estate money-laundering paradise for any amount of money. Love my family still there, love the natural beauty, couldn't care less about much else. Pretty much everything good about Canada exists due to the good fortune of being located on huge natural resources and next to the world's most powerful military/largest economy. Which is fine, except people get smug and act like it's their achievement.

Really my only input was an objection to referring to those who take jobs at lesser pay as "whores". You simply cannot equate your admittedly awful dues-paying experiences earning a buck an hour or whatever, to working at Flair or Sky. Your lack of control over the contract forced on you is no different from the level of control people have over wages anywhere, or of who invites them to an interview. Note that I am not one of the "senior pilots threw the junior under the bus" crowd. But that's the whole point - individuals have zero effect on forces far larger than themselves. All this to say: your enemy isn't other pilots.

Lots of guys are able to take the pay cut, but are unwilling to.

Semantics. Unable, unwilling, whatever. So one turboprop makes more than another. Who cares. You'll always make more money flying big airplanes than small ones in the long run. (Statistically insignificant niche exceptions aside). It's fine to prefer a 703/704 lifestyle, in fact it makes a lot of sense. But don't pretend that it's because you think you'll come out ahead financially in absolute terms. Quality of life, that's a different discussion. If a good job flying ANYTHING fits your situation and budget, nothing else matters.

There are already some pilots that have refused to deadhead on a certain flight because of the inexperience of the crew flying.

Oh please. So did these alleged non-flyers ask to see the crew's logbooks? I also call supreme bs on this one.

[Rowdy]

Some of the total hours in Jazz cockpits right now are probably scary low. There are already some pilots that have refused to deadhead on a certain flight because of the inexperience of the crew flying.

I see DEC or significant pay increases a real possibility.

I'm pretty sure that was a jazz RJ crew that refused to DH on another carrier.. but you can keep up the bullshit

Pay and working conditions at all the express carriers need be improved. But we all know the operators will just cry foul to the minister and have flight training costs heavily subsidized instead.

[confusedalot]

Like many mini bombardiers?

Now that will be a sight to see.

[Kosiw]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... st-438955/

How long before this happens in Canada ?

[Rowdy]

Its already happening!

[Black_Tusk]

Wait, I guess that only works in my utopia where pilots have self respect and principles.

TIL, I have no self respect or principles.

[atphat]

TIL what TIL means

[mbav8r]

It's millennial text speak for, "today I learned", at least that's what google thinks it could be, in context it makes sense.
roflmao, ttyl mofos

[Black_Tusk]

It's millennial text speak for, "today I learned", at least that's what google thinks it could be, in context it makes sense.
roflmao, ttyl mofos

Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

[mbav8r]

About 18 years from retiring

[Cat Driver]

Each generation have their own way of thinking and communicating and text speak is just the latest way.

Sometimes the message gets lost when another generation has no idea what they just read and just ignores it.