Viking Layoffs

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ahramin
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Viking Layoffs

#1 Post by ahramin » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:59 am

Sad news:

http://www.timescolonist.com/business/v ... 1.20294513
Viking Air Ltd. is laying off 212 workers and halting production of its Twin Otter aircraft in North Saanich and Calgary for three months beginning at the end of July.

“This is temporary. It is not a permanent layoff. We are just taking time off on our production side,” company president Dave Curtis said in an interview on Tuesday.

The 90-day pause in production starts July 28, and will give the company time to line up more sales, Curtis said. “We think that there are deals that we are going to close.”
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#2 Post by Mr. North » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:18 pm

Sad news indeed. Good Canadian jobs going by the wayside, a real shame in our 150th year!

I like Viking and what they do, but they effectively neutered the series 400 which is why they've yet to sell ONE domestically. The new Twins suck in the cold and aren't certified to fly STOL. What next gen aircraft is developed only to be a shadow of it's former self? I've met with the owners and asked them that myself. The answer? Government bureaucracy. The STC's and flight testing required for STOL certification were cost prohibitive. Now relegated to more mundane environments, they threw in a modern digital avionics suite that can't stand the average Canadian winter.

Tailor made for the Maldives but little place else. I hope the next generation of CL415's don't suffer the same fate. Long for the days when Canada made iconic bush aircraft!! But in typical Canadian government fashion, we regulated ourselves out of business.
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#3 Post by Beefitarian » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:27 am

Bummer. Hope they get way more orders.
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#4 Post by skymarc » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:54 am

Please elaborate, why do they suck in the cold?

Mr. North wrote:Sad news indeed. Good Canadian jobs going by the wayside, a real shame in our 150th year!

I like Viking and what they do, but they effectively neutered the series 400 which is why they've yet to sell ONE domestically. The new Twins suck in the cold and aren't certified to fly STOL. What next gen aircraft is developed only to be a shadow of it's former self? I've met with the owners and asked them that myself. The answer? Government bureaucracy. The STC's and flight testing required for STOL certification were cost prohibitive. Now relegated to more mundane environments, they threw in a modern digital avionics suite that can't stand the average Canadian winter.

Tailor made for the Maldives but little place else. I hope the next generation of CL415's don't suffer the same fate. Long for the days when Canada made iconic bush aircraft!! But in typical Canadian government fashion, we regulated ourselves out of business.
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#5 Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:38 am

Fancy EFIS screens and associated computers can't handle extreme cold that is prevalent where Canadian companies typically operate Twin Otters.
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#6 Post by skymarc » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:53 pm

That as nothing to do with STOL performance.
Garmin G1000 screens works pretty good in the cold.




goingnowherefast wrote:Fancy EFIS screens and associated computers can't handle extreme cold that is prevalent where Canadian companies typically operate Twin Otters.
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#7 Post by Jimmy2 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:00 pm

I don't think you know what cold is.
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#8 Post by Meatservo » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:27 pm

Nobody needed a Twin Otter that was even heavier than a 300 series. We needed one that was lighter. All that glowing shit in the cockpit adds up to a whole lot of feathers and not much chicken. Maybe all the 300-hour new guys out there need a cartoon to show them where the plane is pointing, but Twin Otter work usually demands a pilot who is old and experienced enough to figure out where they are without all that garbage. They should have concentrated on making a version that was lighter, without that stupid long nose, which was dictated by their distasteful relationship with the American "wipline" company. The whole thing is a bit of a dead end, if you ask me.
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#9 Post by digits_ » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:43 pm

Meatservo wrote:Nobody needed a Twin Otter that was even heavier than a 300 series. We needed one that was lighter. All that glowing shit in the cockpit adds up to a whole lot of feathers and not much chicken. Maybe all the 300-hour new guys out there need a cartoon to show them where the plane is pointing, but Twin Otter work usually demands a pilot who is old and experienced enough to figure out where they are without all that garbage. They should have concentrated on making a version that was lighter, without that stupid long nose, which was dictated by their distasteful relationship with the American "wipline" company. The whole thing is a bit of a dead end, if you ask me.
In general, glass cockpits *are* lighter than steam gauges...
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#10 Post by Meatservo » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:56 pm

You're right, of course. But somehow this plane comes in heavier nevertheless.
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#11 Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:59 pm

I'm really quite surprised it's heavier. Where did the weight come from? I know there's more composites, the mentioned glass panel, engines. Are -34/35s any heavier than the -27?
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#12 Post by Magcheck » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:38 pm

The 400 is fine if you got spares or another 400.... Both will cost a lot.
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#13 Post by Mr. North » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:53 pm

Regarding cold temps and EFIS. G1000's are fine I suppose but the engine gauges are also digital. The problem there being the minimum temp for the screen to function is -20 (or around there I can't remember exactly). So how do you warm up your avionics if you can't start the engines in the first place? A BJ from a Herman would help but most Twins are working in locations without any such support.

Going from no minimum operating temperature to requiring -20 or more, just to turn on the digital engine display? Would be funny if it wasn't so sad!
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#14 Post by skymarc » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:47 pm

A couple of small electric heater in the cockpit and avionic bay run by a small generator would keep everything warm to start. Cold gyros dont last neither in the extreme cold without preheat.
Even the PT6 would need preheat under -20 according to Pratt.

Just saying.




Mr. North wrote:Regarding cold temps and EFIS. G1000's are fine I suppose but the engine gauges are also digital. The problem there being the minimum temp for the screen to function is -20 (or around there I can't remember exactly). So how do you warm up your avionics if you can't start the engines in the first place? A BJ from a Herman would help but most Twins are working in locations without any such support.

Going from no minimum operating temperature to requiring -20 or more, just to turn on the digital engine display? Would be funny if it wasn't so sad!
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#15 Post by complexintentions » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:14 pm

Meatservo wrote:Nobody needed a Twin Otter that was even heavier than a 300 series. We needed one that was lighter. All that glowing shit in the cockpit adds up to a whole lot of feathers and not much chicken. Maybe all the 300-hour new guys out there need a cartoon to show them where the plane is pointing, but Twin Otter work usually demands a pilot who is old and experienced enough to figure out where they are without all that garbage. They should have concentrated on making a version that was lighter, without that stupid long nose, which was dictated by their distasteful relationship with the American "wipline" company. The whole thing is a bit of a dead end, if you ask me.
"Glowing shit", "garbage"...man, let's get rid of all this new-fangled nonsense and get back to good ol' sensible STEAM, baby! hahaha! GPS is for babies, gimme an ADF any old day! Toss them TURbines as well, a real pilot only needs some big jugs up front...

You know you're in Canada when EFIS is considered progressive...next thing ya know, they're gonna be lettin' wimmen fly or sumtin...
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#16 Post by Meatservo » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:28 pm

Actually, radial engines would be a bad idea on a Twin Otter. It's unlikely the nacelles as they are presently designed would take the weight, and the aircraft would be severely nose-heavy.

Frankly, other than being flashy, I don't know what a big screen in front of your face, presenting everything in cartoon-o-vision, can do for you that the regular, cheaper, and presumably more durable instruments can't. Sure, put a GPS in there, but do you need it to be a giant touch-screen?

The aircraft itself isn't modern, or flashy, or particularly high-tech. I feel the glass cockpit in this case is there for "wow" value to impress people not particularly "in the know". And you can start a PT-6 down to minus 40 if you do it right and keep the battery warm. You can pull breakers and fuses on mechanical gyros till the plane warms up if you're worried about the wearing out. Those screens don't last too long either, when they are powered up at very cold temperatures. C'mon- ask me how I know! I flew the same Twin Otter for 15 years with a combo of screens and regular instruments. The screens never were the same after multiple stints in very cold regions with very rustic accommodations and not much possibility of pre-heating anything. A "little buddy" in the cockpit does nothing, one in the nose might keep the mechanical parts of the C-14 or C-11 warm enough to spin, but the screens don't like it and after a few weeks of that abuse they develop blanks spots and blurry edges. Touch-screens? Come on. Years of telling co-pilots not to get fingerprints in the gauges, and now we HAVE to touch them?


If you're using a Twin Otter for what it's made for, you need a tough, reliable instrument package that can withstand the failure of a few components and still tell you what you need to know. 'Cause it's probably going to fail somewhere you can't pull it into the barn for a night to fiddle with little plugs and connectors behind screens.

Putting a modern glass cockpit in a Twin Otter is like giving strawberries to a jackass.
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#17 Post by tohellnback » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:43 pm

well put meat servo + 2 theT Otter was originally designed as a commuter AC and it evolved into a bush plane thanks to Max Ward and he knows his Planes!
The aircraft was designed strong enough to withstand anything with a lot! of oh shit this is going to cost alot and the legacy lives on
I was involved with a little bit of the processes Viking went thru and i must say it is BS with the decisions they made :e.g. intermediate tires with Parker/Haniffin brakes
you have a quarter inch between the caliber and the tire, not well thought of and a after thought lets make the 400 a bush plane again
the original twin otter design came with goodrich brakes and the wheel half that was independent of the disk, meaning you could pull a wheel off by only setting the brakes to park Huh! sounds airliner ish but fast turn around and it was brilliant for a small AC but expensive cause the wheel halve had to have a spline to hold the disc the rotating to the none rotating being the caliber fixed to the gear leg

Here is a good one Viking called our company and asked if they could rent our wheel skis so they could do certification on there 400 series and my boss said ok its money and we have no use for them in the summer other than rebuild
The boss asked me to handle it and i said no problem , so after i crated the three wheel skis and they were ready to go,so i asked the boss if Viking would need the splined Axles that is necessary to make the retractable landing gear work on a twin otter
Yes a twin otter has gear up gear down indication thanks to Max ward and Bristol Aerospace from Winnipeg Manitoba
Viking apparently installed all the hydraulics and electrical indication for the test twin otter wow good job!
My boss sent them a email and they replied that they thought parker brake was standard with the wheel ski installation
Wow talk about inexperience, we ended up sending gear legs complete with hyd elec the whole 9 yards they had no clue but they sure like to brag about a product they now nothing about
as far as i know there is no certfication for wheel skis
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#18 Post by tohellnback » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:04 pm

Typical 21 first sentry no how, Factory management says we don't want you to think just WORK its our job to think
Thats what they told me then i quit Viking after 3 mo building the things and 3 engineering orders EOs
they were pissed # 877, 878, 879
they hate experienced people
getting back to the 400 twin in its useful load, well too much dinero for too little and it will never sell in canada
the positive side is naval and military The Peruvian airforce takes off at 14500 every day and the aircraft doesn't break a sweat no matter where they are and Peru is they have the biggest fleet of 6s in the world for airforce use
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#19 Post by Jimmy2 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:16 am

:shock: Well some people are thinkers and some are workers.

Even the PT6 would need preheat under -20 according to Pratt
Minimum oil temperature to start is -40.
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#20 Post by leftoftrack » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:26 am

Just like to point out the avionics are Apex not Garmin
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#21 Post by FrozenWrench » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:22 pm

Jimmy2 wrote::shock: Well some people are thinkers and some are workers.

Even the PT6 would need preheat under -20 according to Pratt
Minimum oil temperature to start is -40.

Have started at -39, not happy but she lights off and those steam gauges all work just dandy. The bigger concern was remembering to take the battery out and tuck it in the sleeping bag so it had some juice in the morning!
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#22 Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:55 pm

I've started a -34 At -40*c. Had to wait until it warmed up from around -43*c. Was quite slow, but it did it. The bigger engines in The PT6 series struggle, or just won't do it. -42 and -67 aren't as tolerant. Same battery and bigger compressor section, not quite the same.
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#23 Post by pelmet » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:53 pm

"Fiji Airways has agreed to buy three Viking Twin Otter Series 400s for its Fiji Link subsidiary carrying regional commuters on domestic routes throughout the island nation. The deal includes one option.
The Series 400 Twin Otters are scheduled for delivery between October 2017 and February 2018, and will be added to Fiji Airways’ existing fleet of three legacy Twin Otter aircraft based at Nadi International Airport.
Fiji Airways has been operating Twin Otter aircraft for over 10 years.
“The Twin Otter remains the aircraft of choice for our subsidiary Fiji Link’s operations to most of Fiji’s smaller airports,” Fiji Airways Group managing director and CEO Andre Viljoen said. “The Series 400 is a definite step up for our expanded Twin Otter fleet, and will allow us to increase capacity to key Fijian destinations.”
The Series 400 Twin Otters will be delivered as standard land planes in 19-passenger configuration, and equipped with Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-34 turbine engines and Honeywell Primus Apex fully integrated digital IFR avionics suite."

http://atwonline.com/aircraft-orders-de ... a7f24d44be
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#24 Post by CAL » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:31 am

goingnowherefast wrote:Fancy EFIS screens and associated computers can't handle extreme cold that is prevalent where Canadian companies typically operate Twin Otters.
I was wondering how that would work out......
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Re: Viking Layoffs

#25 Post by CAL » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:33 am

Sad news indeed
I saw something recently about them looking to Calgary for something?
It was perhaps too good
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