GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

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TheDopplerEffect
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GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#1 Post by TheDopplerEffect » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:57 pm

So since I have started my training I've understood/misunderstood that in order to log x-country time, your net distance traveled must be over 50nm... I have recently learned that in order to log x-country time you must travel further then 50nm from you point of departure. Now I'm kinda having a conniption over hear because I'm a 200 hour pilot and 65% of my flights have bean to a aerodrome 40nm away. How do I fix this, am I going to jail, will I be broke after this blows over, will I need Vaseline???

Also can I wright down the time I spend sightseeing on my way and at an aerodrome as x-country time?

My Idea of salving all my problems is to re do a book and transfer them over, I would like to spend some money on a real good pilot log anyway, but what am I required to do legally?

In the future how am i suppose to fix mistake that I didn't catch when i was writing them down?

Thanks for the help!
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#2 Post by Docbrad » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:12 pm

Look up the CARs definition of xcty time.

You'll soon realize that there isn't one. It's all up to interpretation. There is no minimum distance.

My stance has been that you can log xcty if you can actually put a route in your logbook. If you are just going to the practice area, no. But if you are navigating somewhere (another airport, or to a waypoint for diversion practice) then it is logged.

I did a quick Google of this and other forums and nearly ever user had a different definition (read: opinion) of what is and what is not xcty time. I'm nearly certain that anyone else that replies here will also have a different response haha.

Good luck!
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#3 Post by photofly » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:36 pm

I have recently learned that in order to log x-country time you must travel further then 50nm from you point of departure.
For US pilots, 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(i). says
Cross-country time means -

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight -
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point. - my emphasis

It goes on to say that for the purposes of experience requirements for certain ratings certificates and permits it also requires the inclusion of ...
..a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

But please note this is US regulation and doesn't apply to Canadian pilots or their logbooks or experience requirements. And even US pilots can log flights shorter than 50nm as cross-country time. They just can't count them towards the cross-country time requirements of a Private Pilot or Commercial Pilot certificate.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#4 Post by EPR » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:02 pm

No one, including Transport Canada will care.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#5 Post by plhought » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:58 pm

Relax dude. As long as your pic/dual flight time is correct it's all that really matters.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#6 Post by Redneck_pilot86 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:54 am

Don't worry about the cross country time. Its literally irrelevant once you have a CPL. Worry about the multiple spelling mistakes, thats what will cost you jobs.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#7 Post by lownslow » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:31 pm

TheDopplerEffect wrote:I have recently learned that in order to log x-country time you must travel further then 50nm from you point of departure.
There's a lesson here. Where did you learn that and did anyone make an attempt to back it up with a reference? There's a lot of people who make shit up in aviation, or hear something that may not apply and extrapolate it to something that does. However well intentioned, it is wrong. I've been on the wrong side of a dumb regulations assumption with a school I attended (long story - I caught the mistake but the CFI refused to acknowledge it) and had my CPL revoked as a result.

What I recommend to any serious pilot is to learn their references. Have a basic ability to fumble through the CARs, the AIM, the POH, etc. in the pursuit of the answers you need. You don't have to memorize every detail, that's impossible, just have a basic ability to navigate its contents. Provided you're working with the most recent revisions they will always contain the right answers.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#8 Post by Chuck Finley » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:47 pm

I would correct every mistake in the log with witeout!
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#9 Post by EPR » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:25 am

Chuck Finley, from my experience, no one cared about whiteout in the logbook, besides it keeps things nice and neat!
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#10 Post by Broken Slinky » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:24 am

As most have stated, there is no TC definition for logging cross country time. Some FTUs/clubs have rules that a flight plan has to be filed if you're traveling further than 25NM. This get misinterpreted as the requirement for logging XC time. Now for your PPL, you require a minimum of 3 hours dual XC and 5 hours solo XC. Your FTU/club will typically have precanned routes that they follow. These routes are typically "approved" by TC. The reason behind it is they want you to actually get something out of your XC time. Going into unfamiliar airports, areas, etc... They don't want you to head 10NM away from your home field and do 360s until your 3 and 5 hours are burned up.
Side note to this is think about going to an electronic log book format. I keep my on an Excel form on the cloud. Easily accessible wherever I can get a connection. Makes for easy corrections if you make mistakes. Ideally you want to know the regs. so you're not putting in garbage numbers in first place though.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#11 Post by JBI » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:26 am

lownslow wrote: There's a lesson here. Where did you learn that and did anyone make an attempt to back it up with a reference? There's a lot of people who make shit up in aviation, or hear something that may not apply and extrapolate it to something that does. However well intentioned, it is wrong. [...]

What I recommend to any serious pilot is to learn their references. Have a basic ability to fumble through the CARs, the AIM, the POH, etc. in the pursuit of the answers you need. You don't have to memorize every detail, that's impossible, just have a basic ability to navigate its contents. Provided you're working with the most recent revisions they will always contain the right answers.
THIS - so many times over!

The CARS are brutal to read, but learn where to find things in them. Ask where restrictions / regulations come from - not in a challenging way, but in a way to learn new things. You'll be surprised at how many things in aviation are "grey" instead of "black and white". And even better, if it's something you weirdly enjoy, there's always a demand for aviation lawyers (though I've found I prefer sitting in a flightdeck over an office)
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#12 Post by AirFrame » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:03 pm

Chuck Finley wrote:I would correct every mistake in the log with witeout!
I use the correction tape instead. Less messy.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#13 Post by praveen4143 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:09 am

I thought you aren't allowed to use whiteout on an official document such as a logbook...? My understanding is that you're supposed to strike out with a single line such that you can still read the error and then enter correct information.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#14 Post by AirFrame » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:27 am

praveen4143 wrote:I thought you aren't allowed to use whiteout on an official document such as a logbook...? My understanding is that you're supposed to strike out with a single line such that you can still read the error and then enter correct information.
That's correct. However, I prefer cleanliness over strict adherence to the law here. We're already expected to record these things on the honour system, and there are a number of ways someone could pad their entries if they really wanted to... using a little white-out from time to time really isn't hiding anything. As I own my own airplane, that also gives a backup to reference if anyone asks... I rarely make the same error in the same place on the same entry, so comparing flights in both locations will validate that my entries are correct.

Also, you're allowed to keep a digital log now... How many digital logs do you think have errors crossed through and new entries placed below? :)
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#15 Post by ahramin » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:20 am

I have never found a reference to white out in the CARs.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#16 Post by groncher » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:11 am

While I'm not sure it's a good idea to use whiteout in any official document, to my knowledge the only CAR referring to correction of entries is 605.93, which applies to the technical records for an aircraft.

(5) Subject to subsection (6), where a person alters an entry on a technical record for the purpose of correcting the entry, the person shall do so by striking out the incorrect entry in such a manner that the underlying information remains legible, and inserting the correct entry together with.....
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#17 Post by photofly » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:08 pm

My local FTU got fined $$$$ for using whiteout on a flight sheet.

Don't ever use whiteout.
Also, you're allowed to keep a digital log now... How many digital logs do you think have errors crossed through and new entries placed below? :)
605.93(6) Where a correction referred to in subsection (5) is being made to a technical record that is maintained as electronic data, the correction shall be made in a manner that does not render the original data inaccessible.
Every single one of them, if they're in compliance with the regulations.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#18 Post by Cat Driver » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:30 pm

I have not flown for some years.

If I do decide to get a medical and renew my license as I understand it I only need to keep a personal log for the time required for currency, not all my time.

Correct?
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#19 Post by Panama Jack » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:16 am

Another area where significant discrepancies in logging exist between US FAR Part 61 and Canadian and pretty much all other regulations is the definition of "Pilot-in-Command" time. This is a huge area of discussion in the US, where three people could be sitting in a Cessna 172 and all 3 considered to be Pilot-in-Command for various purposes. Canada and other countries take a much more conservative (and simplified) stance on what "PIC" is.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#20 Post by EPR » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:40 pm

As I said before, I used whiteout/white tape in my logbook on mistakes in order to keep it neat, Transport never had an issue with it when I submitted it for my ATPL.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#21 Post by confusedalot » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:57 pm

Panama Jack wrote:Another area where significant discrepancies in logging exist between US FAR Part 61 and Canadian and pretty much all other regulations is the definition of "Pilot-in-Command" time. This is a huge area of discussion in the US, where three people could be sitting in a Cessna 172 and all 3 considered to be Pilot-in-Command for various purposes. Canada and other countries take a much more conservative (and simplified) stance on what "PIC" is.
Just stumbled on this thread so humor me....

I was a training guy on and off in my now retired career, and, in canada, had the authority to do line indoc sitting in the back seat with two new guys. It is not a joke and it is for real. transport canada approved, to my great astonishment.

Jet transport planes full of passengers to be clear.

I never bothered to even put this experience in my logbook since, for one, I am a lazy sort, and two, no longer needed flying hours.

How does this sort of flying time get registered in the big scheme of things? Hey, my log would be alot thicker if I chose to record it.

Cheers
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#22 Post by Panama Jack » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:32 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Panama Jack wrote:Another area where significant discrepancies in logging exist between US FAR Part 61 and Canadian and pretty much all other regulations is the definition of "Pilot-in-Command" time. This is a huge area of discussion in the US, where three people could be sitting in a Cessna 172 and all 3 considered to be Pilot-in-Command for various purposes. Canada and other countries take a much more conservative (and simplified) stance on what "PIC" is.
Just stumbled on this thread so humor me....

I was a training guy on and off in my now retired career, and, in canada, had the authority to do line indoc sitting in the back seat with two new guys. It is not a joke and it is for real. transport canada approved, to my great astonishment.

Jet transport planes full of passengers to be clear.

I never bothered to even put this experience in my logbook since, for one, I am a lazy sort, and two, no longer needed flying hours.

How does this sort of flying time get registered in the big scheme of things? Hey, my log would be alot thicker if I chose to record it.

Cheers
Lemme tell ya!

As far as the FAA is concerned, a flight instructor providing flight instruction can log the time giving instructing as PIC;
As far as the FAA is concerned, a guy who is qualified to fly the aircraft who is receiving flight instruction is also eligible to log the time as PIC (ie. a guy who has a Private Pilot Certificate SEL, flying a Mooney and receiving training for his Instrument Rating or his Commercial);

Now let's say confusedalot is a good friend of either the instructor or the student and decides to come along for the ride. You are sitting in the back, fat dumb and happy (or maybe not so much) when the aircraft plows into an Elementary School. There is a big law suit and the injury lawyers are swimming for money. Juries have been convinced that you, given your great wealth of experience and gravitas and surely must have been somehow directing things from behind as would the Captain of a ship (I mean, you ARE the most experienced pilot on board the aircraft by a long shot)- YOU are the Pilot in Command! In other words, you can't log it as far is the FAA is concerned but you can pay for it as far as the courts are concerned.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#23 Post by confusedalot » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:57 pm

Panama Jack wrote:
confusedalot wrote:
Panama Jack wrote:Another area where significant discrepancies in logging exist between US FAR Part 61 and Canadian and pretty much all other regulations is the definition of "Pilot-in-Command" time. This is a huge area of discussion in the US, where three people could be sitting in a Cessna 172 and all 3 considered to be Pilot-in-Command for various purposes. Canada and other countries take a much more conservative (and simplified) stance on what "PIC" is.
Just stumbled on this thread so humor me....

I was a training guy on and off in my now retired career, and, in canada, had the authority to do line indoc sitting in the back seat with two new guys. It is not a joke and it is for real. transport canada approved, to my great astonishment.

Jet transport planes full of passengers to be clear.

I never bothered to even put this experience in my logbook since, for one, I am a lazy sort, and two, no longer needed flying hours.

How does this sort of flying time get registered in the big scheme of things? Hey, my log would be alot thicker if I chose to record it.

Cheers
Lemme tell ya!

As far as the FAA is concerned, a flight instructor providing flight instruction can log the time giving instructing as PIC;
As far as the FAA is concerned, a guy who is qualified to fly the aircraft who is receiving flight instruction is also eligible to log the time as PIC (ie. a guy who has a Private Pilot Certificate SEL, flying a Mooney and receiving training for his Instrument Rating or his Commercial);

Now let's say confusedalot is a good friend of either the instructor or the student and decides to come along for the ride. You are sitting in the back, fat dumb and happy (or maybe not so much) when the aircraft plows into an Elementary School. There is a big law suit and the injury lawyers are swimming for money. Juries have been convinced that you, given your great wealth of experience and gravitas and surely must have been somehow directing things from behind as would the Captain of a ship (I mean, you ARE the most experienced pilot on board the aircraft by a long shot)- YOU are the Pilot in Command! In other words, you can't log it as far is the FAA is concerned but you can pay for it as far as the courts are concerned.
He He He; anything goes in our litigious dog eat dog world.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#24 Post by cncpc » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:18 pm

Chuck Finley wrote:I would correct every mistake in the log with witeout!
No, don't do that. Don't even think about doing that.
Draw a line through the incorrect entry so that it is still readable, then make the correct entry.
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Re: GIANT logbook mistakes!!!

#25 Post by cncpc » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:20 pm

Cat Driver wrote:I have not flown for some years.

If I do decide to get a medical and renew my license as I understand it I only need to keep a personal log for the time required for currency, not all my time.

Correct?
That's what I do. I'm told its wrong.
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