YVR Flow

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GhostRider6
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YVR Flow

#1 Post by GhostRider6 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:58 pm

Hey,

Just wondering if any ATC folk from the YVR ACC can shed some light on the constant implementation of flow into YVR for the last few months.

Thank you very much :)
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7ECA
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Re: YVR Flow

#2 Post by 7ECA » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:59 pm

"Due to staff shortages and limited system capacity..." on each and every sunny day. Haha...
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Broker
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Re: YVR Flow

#3 Post by Broker » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:14 pm

7ECA wrote:"Due to staff shortages and limited system capacity..." on each and every sunny day. Haha...
That normally means Union negotiations are under way or about to commence.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: YVR Flow

#4 Post by PostmasterGeneral » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:20 pm

Often times it's one or two guys working all frequencies. At one of the busiest airports in Canada.

My favourite is the KEINN crossing times of 20 minutes past planned ETA, then "resume normal speed" as soon as you get there, and you're one of only 3 guys on approach.
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Black_Tusk
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Re: YVR Flow

#5 Post by Black_Tusk » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:19 pm

Nothing like flying to YYJ in 10 minutes, then only to sit on the ground there for 45 while waiting for flow. Best part?... no aircraft in the area when we finally get into YVR. So what's the reason?

A month ago we had flow for anything eastbound over FL280... 1 hour. So we filed FL270 to Edmonton's FIR then stepped it up. I wonder how much fuel that cost the company.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: YVR Flow

#6 Post by CpnCrunch » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:00 pm

This "limited system capacity" been happening for years to a certain extent (at least for VFR), mostly on sunny days. This year just seems worse than usual. YYJ hasn't normally been affected in the past, but now you can't even do circuits there.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: YVR Flow

#7 Post by PostmasterGeneral » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:44 pm

Not to mention the guy that normally has the nasally "game show host" voice is out of character full time now... I used to love hearing that.

Almost as much as the happy day guy in YYC!
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loopa
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Re: YVR Flow

#8 Post by loopa » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:25 am

Hahaha yes !!!! The happy day guy lol
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Braun
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Re: YVR Flow

#9 Post by Braun » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:19 am

Broker wrote:
7ECA wrote:"Due to staff shortages and limited system capacity..." on each and every sunny day. Haha...
That normally means Union negotiations are under way or about to commence.
WE just ratified a contract. So no.
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: YVR Flow

#10 Post by Stu Pidasso » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:01 am

Usual 2nd rate services from Nav Canada, control staffing = maximum overtime. Completely embarrassing.
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Rtodd
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Re: YVR Flow

#11 Post by Rtodd » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:17 am

Stu Pidasso wrote:Usual 2nd rate services from Nav Canada, control staffing = maximum overtime. Completely embarrassing.

I totally disagree! Nav Canada provides one of safest and reliable Air Traffic Services in the world. You should be a little more respectful of those that have your back.

RT
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Re: YVR Flow

#12 Post by CpnCrunch » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:26 am

Rtodd wrote: I totally disagree! Nav Canada provides one of safest and reliable ATS services in the world. You should be a little more respectful of those that have your back.

RT
Still no concrete answer about why this has been happening for years. I don't blame the staff. It must be a management issue, or else some fundamental problem with the universe (not enough warm bodies that are competent enough to work for ATC). I suspect the former.
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Re: YVR Flow

#13 Post by Braun » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:04 pm

Stu Pidasso wrote:Usual 2nd rate services from Nav Canada, control staffing = maximum overtime. Completely embarrassing.
Great blanket statement with absolutely nothing to back it up. Say what you want, we are good at what we do and what we do is SAFELY move trafic as expeditiously and orderly as possible. Sorry if that gets in your way. We provide great service at very, very low costs for the airline industry. Also if you aren't happy with the service I strongly suggest you file a complaint. After all, how will we get better if we are so bad at our jobs? By reading useless forum posts?

Also when I say low cost this is not why we are short staffed. Training people if very, very difficult and takes time. We are really focusing on training right now to avoid these delays.
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Re: YVR Flow

#14 Post by CpnCrunch » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:33 pm

Braun wrote:We provide great service
I'm not sure how 50% of Jazz's late afternoon flights into YVR being either cancelled or delayed by > 20 mins is a "great service". We probably can't blame all their delays on flow control, but usually Jazz is nowhere near as bad as this.
very, very low costs for the airline industry.
That may be the problem. The airlines push to reduce Nav Can costs, and this is the result. Perhaps now they've realised they can't cut things to the bone.
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Alcoholism
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Re: YVR Flow

#15 Post by Alcoholism » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:35 pm

If you think our controllers are second rate, you probably should stay on the ground then. That would help the rest of us, less aircraft less flow. Never the less, NavCan controllers are the best given what they have to work with. Visit a tower or control centre to get a better understanding of the job they do, maybe then you'll be appreciative.
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Re: YVR Flow

#16 Post by CpnCrunch » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:40 pm

Alcoholism wrote:If you think our controllers are second rate,
I never said that, and I just looked over this thread and nobody has said or implied that the controllers are second rate.
Visit a tower or control centre to get a better understanding of the job they do, maybe then you'll be appreciative.
I have, and I am appreciative of individual controllers, just not your management. If I've gotten my facts wrong, feel free to correct me.
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ahramin
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Re: YVR Flow

#17 Post by ahramin » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:49 pm

Braun wrote:
Stu Pidasso wrote:Usual 2nd rate services from Nav Canada, control staffing = maximum overtime. Completely embarrassing.
Great blanket statement with absolutely nothing to back it up. Say what you want, we are good at what we do and what we do is SAFELY move trafic as expeditiously and orderly as possible. Sorry if that gets in your way. We provide great service at very, very low costs for the airline industry. Also if you aren't happy with the service I strongly suggest you file a complaint. After all, how will we get better if we are so bad at our jobs? By reading useless forum posts?

Also when I say low cost this is not why we are short staffed. Training people if very, very difficult and takes time. We are really focusing on training right now to avoid these delays.
CZVR DUE TO REDUCED SYSTEM CAPACITY AND ANTICIPATED TFC DEMANDS, VFR ACFT CAN ANTICIPATE RESTRICTIONS AND MAY BE DENIED FLT IN TML CLASS C AIRSPACE
Anyone want to explain what reduced system capacity is? Might 27 VTA controllers doing the job of 44 VTA positions have something to do with it? In a well run company should this problem be solved in more or less than a decade?
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Re: YVR Flow

#18 Post by ahramin » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:51 pm

Alcoholism wrote:If you think our controllers are second rate, you probably should stay on the ground then. That would help the rest of us, less aircraft less flow. Never the less, NavCan controllers are the best given what they have to work with. Visit a tower or control centre to get a better understanding of the job they do, maybe then you'll be appreciative.
Nobody has a problem with YVR VTA controllers unless they are having a very bad day. The manager on the other hand is obviously not able to do the job.
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Re: YVR Flow

#19 Post by Diadem » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:36 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:I never said that, and I just looked over this thread and nobody has said or implied that the controllers are second rate.
Stu Pidasso wrote:Usual 2nd rate services from Nav Canada, control staffing = maximum overtime. Completely embarrassing.
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Re: YVR Flow

#20 Post by Alcoholism » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:28 pm

Thanks Diadem. Now, before Stu means the company and not the controllers, well if one were to say that AC or WS or insert your company here is second rate, wouldn't you think that would include the pilots? Perhaps better worded next time would be advisable. Every company has its issues. I hear many times from co workers making quips about controllers, so easy to do with lack of understanding. They're (ATC) trying to do their best. That is all.
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Re: YVR Flow

#21 Post by CpnCrunch » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:58 pm

Alcoholism wrote:Thanks Diadem. Now, before Stu means the company and not the controllers, well if one were to say that AC or WS or insert your company here is second rate, wouldn't you think that would include the pilots? Perhaps better worded next time would be advisable. Every company has its issues. I hear many times from co workers making quips about controllers, so easy to do with lack of understanding. They're (ATC) trying to do their best. That is all.
"control staffing = maximum overtime" seemed pretty obvious to me (talking about management scheduling rather than controllers).
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Re: YVR Flow

#22 Post by Prodriver » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:11 pm

I have noticed it is being abused as well. There should be no need for loading up air crews with this crap, just deal with it or vector traffic for arrivals, etc. There are lots of tools in your tool kit to apply.(Speed, Vectors, holds Etc.)

How does one CADOR the ATC system that we are paying to use? Call and complain?
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Re: YVR Flow

#23 Post by Black_Tusk » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:29 pm

Not to mention not getting paid when you're sitting at another airport waiting for flow time with the door open.
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Re: YVR Flow

#24 Post by PostmasterGeneral » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:40 am

I don't think anyone is implying that the Nav Canada controllers are second rate, or not working to the best of their ability. I, personally, have the utmost respect for the men and women who keep us safe each and every day, who see the big picture, when maybe the rest of us don't.

Where I get frustrated, is with the system itself. Often times, I can't wait to get south of the border. strictly speaking, as a pilot, the quality of service seems to be much better down there. Not in any way relating to the controllers in specific, but with the system as a whole. Nav Canada just seems to shit the bed on a daily basis. Is it all about the bottom line?
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Re: YVR Flow

#25 Post by Stu Pidasso » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:24 pm

The CEO of Nav Canada earns 3.1 Million, along with a long list of overpaid executives. Controller salaries have quietly gone vertical over the last few years, largely due to overtime. If staffing levels ever got to where they should be, overtime would disappear. A friend of mine in VR Tower (VFR Controller) T4'd at 240K last year. Pretty good gig for a career that has zero educational prerequisites, zero financial investment in training, zero risk of personal harm and can sign up right out of high school.

Nav Canada is a service provider and are doing an abysmal job. Nothing against the working Controller, I appreciate all you do. This summer has been a nightmare, the mid August fiasco in YYZ took Air Canada a full week to recover from.

Who pays for that, certainly not Nav Canada. VR has been a joke this summer, slow down clearance 400 nm out, followed by "speed your discretion," followed by being the only Aircraft on approach.

The only jurisdiction I fly into, that is less efficient than Canada - is China.

Sorry boyz, that is the view from one of your customers and certainly shared by everyone I talk to.

Cheers
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