The Bombardier VS Boeing thing

[TheStig]

Like most people here, I've followed the developments as a concerned tax payer who would like our Government to spend money wisely and ensure the safety of this country. Clearly neither is being done with respect to the CF-18 replacement and it bothers me.

The politics that has been infused into this process have totally corrupted it. A quick recap:

-The Liberals flamed the Conservatives announcement to purchase 65 F-35's for 9 billion dollars ($140,000,000/aircraft) citing a lack of a transparent competition.

-The Conservatives cancel the order and promise a competition after the next election.

-The liberals promise to never buy the F-35, and promise to have an open competition (with one candidate barred from the competition?!?)

-Meanwhile, the F-35 enters operation to USMC, USAF and deliveries are made to RAAF, RNLAF and Italian Air Force. Production ramps up and costs start to meet targets (about 90-100 million/aircraft). Other NATO countries and other allies begin to start selecting F-35 as the winner of their own (open) competitions. Our newly elected government doubles down, and states that the F-35 "doesn't and is far from working".

-Despite RCAF statements to the contrary, Liberal government announces that Canada requires an 'interim' 18 Super Hornets, sole sourced with no competition. The quoted price of the 18 F/A-18's...6.5 Billion ($360,000,000/aircraft)!

-Enter the Boeing/Bombardier trade dispute.

-Boeing (correctly IMHO) asserts BBD has received illegal government subsidies, the irony is there omission of the fact the WTO has recently found them guilty of receiving illegal subsidies from Washington state. This is why instead of appealing to the WTO, Boeing has launched their case domestically. Our PM has now forgotten who he actually works for and states that "we will not buy from Boeing while it is try to sue us."

What we have now is an intersection of two of the holes our governments (of both parties) have been digging for a long time to meet their political aspirations; Mismanagement of Military acquisitions and bailing out Bombardier. Their solution, sadly, seems to be to keep digging.

[Gino Under]

The dispute between Boeing and Bombardier is about dumping a foreign product onto the U.S. domestic market at below cost. The very essence of this dispute could never be heard by the WTO as it is totally beyond their scope. At this stage, Boeings accusations have to be proven. Remember the legal premise you're innocent until proven guilty?
... apparently not.

The fact the Gouv. Du Quebec has invested specifically in the C series program, not Bombardier (the company) is also beyond the scope of the WTO, and investments or investors don't qualify as 'subsidies', handouts, or illegal loans in anybody's jurisdiction.
... except in this thread.

Do you really think programs with 100% government backing who provide financial support for the likes of Sukhoi and Comac aren't going to try and crack the U.S. market? If they ever do, I'd imagine Boeing would have a more solid reason to protest to the Dept. of Commerce. Don't you? Bombardier is merely the thin edge of the wedge and the threat C series poses to an unprepared Boeing is why Boeing has to do this.

I'll say it again, Turdo shouldn't be holding the RCAF hostage over this dispute. THAT's a waste of taxpayer money...

Gino

[confusedalot]

WTO, Quebec, Boeing......I suspect the cliché of not seeing the forest for the trees comes to mind.

This kind of legalistic battle would go on forever no matter what,, just part of the litigious social game of the 21st, and 20th, century.

The bottom line is that an aircraft manufacturer is not capable of carrying their own weight in a treacherous world, and that the desire for national prestige, is pouring money into a losing proposition.

For the rich and powerful, playing the casino game makes sense. For the struggling masses, watching the rich and powerful play with hard earned dollars sourced elsewhere except their own pockets, to support the rich casino game, is gravely insulting and well out of place.

So if priorities dictate perpetually saving a white elephant at the expense of joe blow's well being, I vote for joe blow.

Lots of countries are not involved with an aerospace industry, and socially doing very well.

[Old fella]

Like most people here, I've followed the developments as a concerned tax payer who would like our Government to spend money wisely and ensure the safety of this country. Clearly neither is being done with respect to the CF-18 replacement and it bothers me.

The politics that has been infused into this process have totally corrupted it. A quick recap:

-The Liberals flamed the Conservatives announcement to purchase 65 F-35's for 9 billion dollars ($140,000,000/aircraft) citing a lack of a transparent competition.

-The Conservatives cancel the order and promise a competition after the next election.

-The liberals promise to never buy the F-35, and promise to have an open competition (with one candidate barred from the competition?!?)

-Meanwhile, the F-35 enters operation to USMC, USAF and deliveries are made to RAAF, RNLAF and Italian Air Force. Production ramps up and costs start to meet targets (about 90-100 million/aircraft). Other NATO countries and other allies begin to start selecting F-35 as the winner of their own (open) competitions. Our newly elected government doubles down, and states that the F-35 "doesn't and is far from working".

-Despite RCAF statements to the contrary, Liberal government announces that Canada requires an 'interim' 18 Super Hornets, sole sourced with no competition. The quoted price of the 18 F/A-18's...6.5 Billion ($360,000,000/aircraft)!

-Enter the Boeing/Bombardier trade dispute.

-Boeing (correctly IMHO) asserts BBD has received illegal government subsidies, the irony is there omission of the fact the WTO has recently found them guilty of receiving illegal subsidies from Washington state. This is why instead of appealing to the WTO, Boeing has launched their case domestically. Our PM has now forgotten who he actually works for and states that "we will not buy from Boeing while it is try to sue us."

What we have now is an intersection of two of the holes our governments (of both parties) have been digging for a long time to meet their political aspirations; Mismanagement of Military acquisitions and bailing out Bombardier. Their solution, sadly, seems to be to keep digging.

Actually I think you are a little off on your prognosis. I view this Boeing spat is paving the way for the current JT government to get the F-35, not in this current mandate but after 2019(yes he will be re elected). He needs his current number of seats in Quebec so support to BBD will continue, including the Boeing dustup. BBD cannot/ will not fail or loose market share under his watch because of the money poured in, again under his watch. Say what many of you will but the Quebec Aerospace industry is just to effing important to the overall scheme of things for Canada. I suspect the announcement will be 20/21 timeframe for the F-35 citing the intent of Boeing to screw over BBD and ruin sales to US and possible other places. LM will get the Canadian fighter jet business being a US company, the Canadian electorate will have forgotten the pre 2019 comments on the buying the F-35 and besides Governments don’t fall on military procurement issues. Finally the RCAF will be happy as F-35 is their choice for fighter replacement. Just saying.

[TheStig]

Actually I think you are a little off on your prognosis. I view this Boeing spat is paving the way for the current JT government to get the F-35, not in this current mandate but after 2019(yes he will be re elected). He needs his current number of seats in Quebec so support to BBD will continue, including the Boeing dustup. BBD cannot/ will not fail or loose market share under his watch because of the money poured in, again under his watch. Say what many of you will but the Quebec Aerospace industry is just to effing important to the overall scheme of things for Canada. I suspect the announcement will be 20/21 timeframe for the F-35 citing the intent of Boeing to screw over BBD and ruin sales to US and possible other places. LM will get the Canadian fighter jet business being a US company, the Canadian electorate will have forgotten the pre 2019 comments on the buying the F-35 and besides Governments don’t fall on military procurement issues. Finally the RCAF will be happy as F-35 is their choice for fighter replacement. Just saying.

I hope you're right. I can see them having an about face after the next election.

I actually thought for a while Boeing might just buy the C series program, instead of continuously dumping money into new variants of the 737 MAX that no airlines really seem interested in. BBD's class A shares probably made that a non-starter.

[Old fella]

Actually I think you are a little off on your prognosis. I view this Boeing spat is paving the way for the current JT government to get the F-35, not in this current mandate but after 2019(yes he will be re elected). He needs his current number of seats in Quebec so support to BBD will continue, including the Boeing dustup. BBD cannot/ will not fail or loose market share under his watch because of the money poured in, again under his watch. Say what many of you will but the Quebec Aerospace industry is just to effing important to the overall scheme of things for Canada. I suspect the announcement will be 20/21 timeframe for the F-35 citing the intent of Boeing to screw over BBD and ruin sales to US and possible other places. LM will get the Canadian fighter jet business being a US company, the Canadian electorate will have forgotten the pre 2019 comments on the buying the F-35 and besides Governments don’t fall on military procurement issues. Finally the RCAF will be happy as F-35 is their choice for fighter replacement. Just saying.

I hope you're right. I can see them having an about face after the next election.

I actually thought for a while Boeing might just buy the C series program, instead of continuously dumping money into new variants of the 737 MAX that no airlines really seem interested in. BBD's class A shares probably made that a non-starter.

Could be that JT is hoping this Boeing spat escalates to the point that BBD is sanctioned by US and he can tell Boeing to sod off. He probably wants a way out of this Super Hornet intriem purchase as many experts and no doubt military themselves think it is a big waste of resources

[teacher]

This is simply an effort by Boeing to delay entry into sevice of a superior product.

Boeing snoozed in this segment and went on the cheap with the MAX. Now they're hoping a protectionist sympathetic ear in Washington will help them support an inferior product.

[teacher]

Oh damn!!

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-441478/

[confusedalot]

Well, look at the bright side, if the US market goes south due to politicks (the misspelling is intentional), there is always China and the rest of the world.

[teacher]

Well, look at the bright side, if the US market goes south due to politicks (the misspelling is intentional), there is always China and the rest of the world.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/china-s- ... -1.3605479

[7ECA]

Well, what a surprise...

The US Department of Commerce has ruled against the aerospace firm Bombardier in its dispute with rival Boeing.

An interim tariff of 219.63% has been proposed on the import of Bombardier's C-Series jet to the US.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-41397181

[dhc#]

Bombardier just got walloped...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bombard ... -1.4308590

[complexintentions]

Classic strategy. Even if Bombardier appeals and and eventually wins said appeal, the intervening time and uncertainty could do tremendous damage to the sales prospects of the C series, at least in the US. Either way Boeing's goal is realized.

I hate what it will do to the workers - not to mention what seems to be an excellent aircraft - but I won't shed any tears for the Beaudoin family cabal. Hard to tell which side of the argument is more corrupt.

[confusedalot]

Anyone know how many airframes would achieve breakeven?

[Gino Under]

Well...
life goes on.

Air Baltic has confirmed it is about to order 14 CS300s by years end, intended to replace their Q400s.
Delta's CEO says they'll receive their aircraft because he doesn't seem to think a tarif is likely to ever be applied.
This is going to be a long game and the Commerce Department's decision yesterday is simply the first offside called in the game. This game isn't over yet. We'll see when it is, who's penalized the most and who wins in the end.
A CBC commentator compared Bombardier's battle with Boeing like Bambi taking on Godzilla.
Yeah, kinda.

Gino
.

[Rockie]

Classic strategy. Even if Bombardier appeals and and eventually wins said appeal, the intervening time and uncertainty could do tremendous damage to the sales prospects of the C series, at least in the US. Either way Boeing's goal is realized.

I hate what it will do to the workers - not to mention what seems to be an excellent aircraft - but I won't shed any tears for the Beaudoin family cabal. Hard to tell which side of the argument is more corrupt.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

If Canada does not get F18s, what is the alternative? The F35s he fought against?
Or maybe we could provide our military with rainbow coloured c172s, flown only by women, alphabet genders or visable minorities. Diversity is so important

There was a time when Canada purchased non-US military aircraft. That can easily happen again......

There are not just the fighters in future contracts. The Military wants to replace the air tankers as well for which Boeing is a contender, against Airbus.

The Canadian military signed for billions worth of contracts spanning decades with Boeing for the C-17s, the Chinooks and other stuff. They are stuck with these...

However,

Air Canada/Rouge have about 90 Boeings and have 61 737 Max on order.

Westjet has 119 Boeing and many on order.

All these aircraft have an Airbus alternative.....if Canada was to apply a tariff on Boeing products....

Canada is not alone. The British whose Shorts plant in Northern Ireland, manufactures the wings of the C-Series are also pissed

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... e-war.html

[Gino Under]

... not to forget some of the awesome Russian fighters out there. Maybe we could re-purpose and lease Shearwater to the Russian Air Force or Navy for 20 years or something crazy like that and really make a few bucks in the process? Trump likes crazy.
... a C series ASW platform instead of the Poseidon to replace our Souped up Electras, oops, Auroras.
That would get Donald's attention!
Stepping away from the Super Hornet might just put an end to that production line. Thanks St. Louis. It's been fun.

You laugh ...
(I hope so )
Gino Under

[TheStig]

Just for discussions sake, to look at things from a different angle, and forget about Boeing for a minute, does anyone think that Bombardier hasn't been subsidized? It's hard to argue these aircraft weren't dumped onto the market.

As a Canadian pilot working for a Canadian carrier I don't like the fact that my own taxes are being used to subsidize the sale of aircraft (below cost) to a massive and profitable foreign competitor.

The saga continues.

[helicopterray]

Boeing subsidies.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3773916/bomb ... subsidies/