Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

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Diadem
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by Diadem »

Mick G wrote:[Your argument has no merit. The current employment standards act already takes care of your concerns (read here: https://www.ece.gov.nt.ca/en/services/e ... -standards).....do we now start to regulate marine, taxi drivers, bus drivers etc... in a way different than is already spelled out in the employment standards act???
You are lumping everyone together into a single group and unnecessarily focusing on one sector which has operated just fine for the last 100 years. You are just the type of person who is probably driving this recent and quite absurd Transport Canada rules...........remember this is a free country and no employee is forced to do anything
Why doesn't my argument have merit? You didn't provide any rationale except to reference the Employment Standards Act, which no one else has brought up and isn't relevant here. You're right in that no one can be forced to work if they don't want to, but the proposed changes to the CARs wouldn't force anyone to work either, so I don't see how that's relevant. Employees are free to quit if they don't like the working conditions, but in a lot of cases that's not a realistic option; when I worked in the Arctic, it was the worst nadir of the recession, and there were literally no jobs available, so quitting wasn't a viable choice. I wouldn't even have been able to get EI if I left voluntarily. As long as they worked us within the limits of the CARs, there was no recourse, and most northern operators push their pilots to those limits every day. If you quit because you didn't want to work fourteen hours at a time, you'd have a hell of a time finding new work when you explained the reason you left in your interview. Unless the rules are changed to prevent that kind of abuse, employers will continue to force pilots to work fourteen-hour days with no alternative but to quit; it's not safe, but it's legal, so we don't have much recourse. Even in this era of hiring, management coerces young pilots into cooperating by reminding them that if they want the additional five hundred hours and a good reference to get on at Jazz, they'll go along to get along and keep their mouths shut. Frankly, I don't think your argument has any merit, because you haven't really made an argument, you've just ranted against the evils of regulations.
When I worked at that job in the Arctic, several pilots were told to do things that were illegal, and they went along with it because they were afraid of making waves. My last straw came when the company failed to manage the schedule properly, and they told me that I needed to keep working after I no longer could. I told them I had already worked to the CARs limits, so I wouldn't be able to. They told me to change my duty records to "make it work". I still refused, I immediately started looking for another job, and I quit the second I found one. Still, I couldn't afford to just leave because I was no longer comfortable working there, I had to wait until I found a replacement. The only thing that's different about flying in the north is that management thinks no one is watching and they can get away with anything. Any decent operators already employ enough pilots to give everyone a reasonable amount of time off, and only the cheap scummy companies run on min crew. I have no sympathy for businesses that are run like that, especially the ones that try to coerce pilots into doing things that are illegal just so they can make a little more profit. We need more stringent regs, because they'll take every inch they can get.
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by Cat Driver »

It has been like that since I started flying.

The real problem is political.

T.C. is a political animal and corrupt to the bone and as long as it remains that way nothing will change.

If you want to really get noticed all you have to do is file a complaint with T.C. about rule breaking and you will not have to work for operators who break the rules because the word will get around that you are not a team player.

I walked away from several jobs because the employer threatened me with loss of job unless I did as I was told.

It sure never hurt my career.
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bobcaygeon
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by bobcaygeon »

Diadem wrote:
Mick G wrote:[Your argument has no merit. The current employment standards act already takes care of your concerns (read here: https://www.ece.gov.nt.ca/en/services/e ... -standards).....do we now start to regulate marine, taxi drivers, bus drivers etc... in a way different than is already spelled out in the employment standards act???
You are lumping everyone together into a single group and unnecessarily focusing on one sector which has operated just fine for the last 100 years. You are just the type of person who is probably driving this recent and quite absurd Transport Canada rules...........remember this is a free country and no employee is forced to do anything
Why doesn't my argument have merit? You didn't provide any rationale except to reference the Employment Standards Act, which no one else has brought up and isn't relevant here. You're right in that no one can be forced to work if they don't want to, but the proposed changes to the CARs wouldn't force anyone to work either, so I don't see how that's relevant. Employees are free to quit if they don't like the working conditions, but in a lot of cases that's not a realistic option; when I worked in the Arctic, it was the worst nadir of the recession, and there were literally no jobs available, so quitting wasn't a viable choice. I wouldn't even have been able to get EI if I left voluntarily. As long as they worked us within the limits of the CARs, there was no recourse, and most northern operators push their pilots to those limits every day. If you quit because you didn't want to work fourteen hours at a time, you'd have a hell of a time finding new work when you explained the reason you left in your interview. Unless the rules are changed to prevent that kind of abuse, employers will continue to force pilots to work fourteen-hour days with no alternative but to quit; it's not safe, but it's legal, so we don't have much recourse. Even in this era of hiring, management coerces young pilots into cooperating by reminding them that if they want the additional five hundred hours and a good reference to get on at Jazz, they'll go along to get along and keep their mouths shut. Frankly, I don't think your argument has any merit, because you haven't really made an argument, you've just ranted against the evils of regulations.
When I worked at that job in the Arctic, several pilots were told to do things that were illegal, and they went along with it because they were afraid of making waves. My last straw came when the company failed to manage the schedule properly, and they told me that I needed to keep working after I no longer could. I told them I had already worked to the CARs limits, so I wouldn't be able to. They told me to change my duty records to "make it work". I still refused, I immediately started looking for another job, and I quit the second I found one. Still, I couldn't afford to just leave because I was no longer comfortable working there, I had to wait until I found a replacement. The only thing that's different about flying in the north is that management thinks no one is watching and they can get away with anything. Any decent operators already employ enough pilots to give everyone a reasonable amount of time off, and only the cheap scummy companies run on min crew. I have no sympathy for businesses that are run like that, especially the ones that try to coerce pilots into doing things that are illegal just so they can make a little more profit. We need more stringent regs, because they'll take every inch they can get.

My life is more valuable than any job. If it's unsafe then you always have the option to quit..... I did and it sucked but I don't regret it.
Do you really think this industry is the only one that has such issues? The oil patch laid off/removed over 100,000 jobs in approx. 2 years. I'm sure there are unscrupulous companies there too that push the rules and pressure people because they can easily be replaced. Walking away is always an option.
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Diadem
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by Diadem »

bobcaygeon wrote:My life is more valuable than any job. If it's unsafe then you always have the option to quit..... I did and it sucked but I don't regret it.
Do you really think this industry is the only one that has such issues? The oil patch laid off/removed over 100,000 jobs in approx. 2 years. I'm sure there are unscrupulous companies there too that push the rules and pressure people because they can easily be replaced. Walking away is always an option.
And that's exactly why regulations are important! You should never have to make a choice between your job and your safety, and if companies aren't willing to run safe operations then the government needs to set standards to ensure that businesses in all industries aren't pressuring their employees to do things that are dangerous. Most companies run safe operations, but some don't, and it's a lot easier for employees to refuse unsafe work when that unsafe work is illegal.
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marakii
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by marakii »

Are the northern float operators from the mom and pop to your regular operators face pilot staff.shortages associated with this?

Thanks
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by goingnowherefast »

It won't affect float operators greatly. Flying day VFR with a 7am start, you can still do a 13 hour duty day with unlimited legs. If you want to wake your pilots up for a 5am start, the day is a bit shorter.

What this will end is the expectation that pilots stay around and do manual labour when not flying. Painting the office, fixing the dock, helping maintenance, loading other planes, sweeping the maintenance hangar, etc. That practice tends to lead to working 80 hours a week.
bobcaygeon wrote:My life is more valuable than any job. If it's unsafe then you always have the option to quit..... I did and it sucked but I don't regret it.
Do you really think this industry is the only one that has such issues? The oil patch laid off/removed over 100,000 jobs in approx. 2 years. I'm sure there are unscrupulous companies there too that push the rules and pressure people because they can easily be replaced. Walking away is always an option.
Often pilots can't afford to quit. The abusive companies typically have nasty bonds as well. They hire kids with a fresh CPL and 200 hours who don't know any better. Now they're 6 months in, exhausted, still 20 grand in student debt with a 15 grand bond. Well, I guess they could quit then declare bankruptcy and go on welfare.
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by bobcaygeon »

goingnowherefast wrote:It won't affect float operators greatly. Flying day VFR with a 7am start, you can still do a 13 hour duty day with unlimited legs. If you want to wake your pilots up for a 5am start, the day is a bit shorter.

What this will end is the expectation that pilots stay around and do manual labour when not flying. Painting the office, fixing the dock, helping maintenance, loading other planes, sweeping the maintenance hangar, etc. That practice tends to lead to working 80 hours a week.
bobcaygeon wrote:My life is more valuable than any job. If it's unsafe then you always have the option to quit..... I did and it sucked but I don't regret it.
Do you really think this industry is the only one that has such issues? The oil patch laid off/removed over 100,000 jobs in approx. 2 years. I'm sure there are unscrupulous companies there too that push the rules and pressure people because they can easily be replaced. Walking away is always an option.
Often pilots can't afford to quit. The abusive companies typically have nasty bonds as well. They hire kids with a fresh CPL and 200 hours who don't know any better. Now they're 6 months in, exhausted, still 20 grand in student debt with a 15 grand bond. Well, I guess they could quit then declare bankruptcy and go on welfare.
Sounds like me. I ate the bond and left with my student loans. It's not like I made enough to have to repay them. Most government student loans allow you to just to pay the interest while your earnings suck.
Those operators aren't going away with these new regs, they'll find ways around it just like they do now. The only reason they will disappear is because TC has buried them in enough paperwork they've decide it is not worth it anymore. The new regs will require software that isn't cheap.
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by leftoftrack »

No it doesn't
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Cat Driver wrote:
T.C. is a political animal and corrupt to the bone and as long as it remains that way nothing will change.

If you want to really get noticed all you have to do is file a complaint with T.C. about rule breaking and you will not have to work for operators who break the rules because the word will get around that you are not a team player.
When I was fighting the foreign pilot issue a few years ago, another pilot (not me) filed a complaint to the RCMP that TC Canada was violating the CARs by allowing foreign pilots to fly for Canadian Operatiors with Foreign licences.

As soon as the RCMP approached TC to look into the matter, someone at TC (I have his name) called my employer to inform them that I had filed a complaint to the the RCMP against them.

I had not.

The RCMP never gave them the name of the pilot who had filed the complaint, but it HAD to be me.....
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by Cat Driver »

As soon as the RCMP approached TC to look into the matter, someone at TC (I have his name) called my employer to inform them that I had filed a complaint to the the RCMP against them.
If you can prove this you can demand he/she be fired and if they refuse to fire him/her P.M. me and I will tell you how to get it done.

I went through the process some years ago and got the T.C. person fired.
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tohellnback
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by tohellnback »

So when did the federal government consider north of 60 a part of Canada ?
I was in YZF in 79 and it was in control of the feds back then and it was good 3 paycheques a month
2 company and 1 federal for living up north , i recall 890 bucks a mo. tax free and you couldn't go wrong if you had brass balls
work was tough in those days and it was better to be delusional
Drunk in better terms Strange Range every night except Sundays
The good old days are OVER
I never ever considered north of 60 a part of Canada because it is a place that the feds don't give a fuuck about it has nothing to offer to the grande scheme on how to build a nation
40000 people in the Nwt and that don't make shit in Canada
There are more immigrants coming into Canada then the entire population north of 60
Rules are rules and Canada loves them
a good example of living up north opposed to the rest of the country is
when you go on line to buy something and the merchant offers free delivery
ok add to cart and then you do check out
they charge 38 dollars for shipping to postalX1A yellowknife WTF this is not Canada, Canada post is cheaper
so you try to get a explanation on line from the retailer and its imposible to get a answer
it is just like trying to get a answer from TP or any GOV fed
Canada is bullshit and North of 60 needs to get there shit together form a alliance with the aboriginal Gov and live like a Canadian
Southerners have ten times more liberties
i don't call Canada my home anymore the political situation is too costly i moved onto a developing Nation and i am happier than i was ever in Canada
Its full of Hypocrits OH ! best place on earth FU!
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by Meatservo »

Uh, yeah. Thanks for pitching in to the conversation, I guess.
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Re: Northern Operators threatened by 'absurd' Transport Canada rules

Post by Rupert_Pupkin »

tohellnback wrote:So when did the federal government consider north of 60 a part of Canada ?
I was in YZF in 79 and it was in control of the feds back then and it was good 3 paycheques a month
2 company and 1 federal for living up north , i recall 890 bucks a mo. tax free and you couldn't go wrong if you had brass balls
work was tough in those days and it was better to be delusional
Drunk in better terms Strange Range every night except Sundays
The good old days are OVER
I never ever considered north of 60 a part of Canada because it is a place that the feds don't give a fuuck about it has nothing to offer to the grande scheme on how to build a nation
40000 people in the Nwt and that don't make shit in Canada
There are more immigrants coming into Canada then the entire population north of 60
Rules are rules and Canada loves them
a good example of living up north opposed to the rest of the country is
when you go on line to buy something and the merchant offers free delivery
ok add to cart and then you do check out
they charge 38 dollars for shipping to postalX1A yellowknife WTF this is not Canada, Canada post is cheaper
so you try to get a explanation on line from the retailer and its imposible to get a answer
it is just like trying to get a answer from TP or any GOV fed
Canada is bullshit and North of 60 needs to get there shit together form a alliance with the aboriginal Gov and live like a Canadian
Southerners have ten times more liberties
i don't call Canada my home anymore the political situation is too costly i moved onto a developing Nation and i am happier than i was ever in Canada
Its full of Hypocrits OH ! best place on earth FU!
It's a ring toss game
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