W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

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golden hawk
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W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#1 Post by golden hawk » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:55 am

http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/w5-investigati ... -1.3606680

I fell asleep half way through reading this......
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goingnowherefast
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#2 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:05 pm

I was wondering when an investigative journalist was going to do this story. Hopefully it sticks to the actual facts and not way over dramatise them to the point of lost credibility.
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infiniteregulus
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#3 Post by infiniteregulus » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:46 pm

That blurred pilot looks like a drug dealer haha
Should be an interesting watch though.
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#4 Post by digits_ » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:50 pm

golden hawk wrote:http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/w5-investigati ... -1.3606680

I fell asleep half way through reading this......
Why? The article seems to be quite accurate. Not sure what you think is wrong with it?
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#5 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:03 pm

I think his comment was sarcasm
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#6 Post by bobcaygeon » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:11 pm

So we should remove the provisions for controlled rest in the flight deck because it scares the sheep in the back?

You can shorten the days and pilots will still want to nap once in awhile. If we listen to sheep we have to eliminate that right even though the science says its safe.
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#7 Post by golden hawk » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:21 pm

:smt023
goingnowherefast wrote:I think his comment was sarcasm
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#8 Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:38 am

The provisions in for controlled rest on the flight deck aren't going anywhere. Makes the story more compelling though.
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#9 Post by pdw » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:59 am

The little nap, when prearranged, was never an issue.

Going into a deep sleep mode on shift, having missed out on the off day(s), .. understandably can risk having to wake out of serious slumber right into the fray. (The San Fran lineup incident is mentioned, with regards to looking at fatigue as a potential part. Perhaps we can even look at the last crash there where the pilot wakes up an hour before the landing and the ILS is down, requiring a manual approach). Waking out of a deep sleep, skips the whole morning routine that is usually involved getting to a flightdeck, which can be upt to a few hours to enjoy some coffee and have time on the treadmill

The little catnap on a flight .. no .. don't think so .. the fatigue topic has to do with being way behind on sleep showing up for work, for whatever type of flying. If the fatigue epidemic is that real, ...maybe necessary to invent some kind of sleep app for those issues.
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#10 Post by bobcaygeon » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:05 am

The San Fran incident pairing would comply with the new regs.
Flying at night will cause fatigue. Should we just ban it period?
Pilots consistently show up for work later in the day short of sleep and rest.
Don't even get me started on the commuters.
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#11 Post by altiplano » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:51 am

bobcaygeon wrote:The San Fran incident pairing would comply with the new regs.
Flying at night will cause fatigue. Should we just ban it period?
Pilots consistently show up for work later in the day short of sleep and rest.
Don't even get me started on the commuters.
Do you know what the pairing was?

*I heard* it was an LGA turn, then a YYZ sit, then late flight to SFO - 03:00EDT arrival, for a crew that was reserve on call from 05:00 EDT...
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#12 Post by Air.Field » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:19 am

The CEO of Cargojet tells W5 the new rules could put his company out of business because it would require them to hire many more pilots.
Here we go again with cargo pilots being immune to fatigue. CJ has nearly a monopoly on cargo in Canada. If AJ can't figure out how to make a profit, he probably should step down. More so when he thinks adding more pilots will sink CJ.
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#13 Post by Pilot2b12 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:14 am

JETLAGGED airs Saturday at 7 p.m. EDT on CTV, and 10 p.m. on CTV2. It can be viewed online after at W5.CTVNews.ca and the Official W5 YouTube Channel
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#14 Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:49 am

I watched it on the youtube channel this morning. Nothing we as pilots didn't already know, just in a TV friendly format. More interviews, etc.

Summary:
Pilots are tired, causing gaps in safety. Canada is among the most lax for flight and duty regs in the world. Industry lobbyists complaining about money and saying "but there's been no accident in Canada".
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#15 Post by bobcaygeon » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:49 am

Our mystery pilot mentioned he was tired after his 9th day in a row at work. Last time I checked you choose to work 9 days at AC and can't be scheduled it without your approval.

Again the mention Buffalo and the FO traveled 4000 km prior to work by her choice instead of using the time provided to her to rest. Dan Adamus "forgot" that part.

It was never mentioned that the the travelling public WANTS to travel to Europe at night for their convenience, not the flight crews choice. Don't like it, don't book late night flights. The accountant will figure it out pretty quick.

Rules need to change but there needs to be a better balance and the r st provided needs to be used as rest.
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#16 Post by PROC_HDG » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:57 am

bobcaygeon wrote:It was never mentioned that the the travelling public WANTS to travel to Europe at night for their convenience, not the flight crews choice. Don't like it, don't book late night flights. The accountant will figure it out pretty quick.
Nobody is arguing that we shouldn't be flying at night, that is ridiculous. The argument is that flying across the ocean on the back of the clock is unsafe without an augmented crew. The far-superior FAA regs address this and ours don't even begin to.

It is downright embarrassing doing a 2-leg Atlantic crossing in a mainline widebody knowing that pretty much every airplane around you is running a 3 or 4 man crew.

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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#17 Post by BE20 Driver » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:22 pm

bobcaygeon wrote:Our mystery pilot mentioned he was tired after his 9th day in a row at work. Last time I checked you choose to work 9 days at AC and can't be scheduled it without your approval.

Again the mention Buffalo and the FO traveled 4000 km prior to work by her choice instead of using the time provided to her to rest. Dan Adamus "forgot" that part.
I haven't watched this yet. That said, what if the AC guy is in year 1-4 and NEEDS to do 9 days just to keep the lights on at home? I do a crap ton of overtime - not because I want to but because I have to.

Same for Colgan. I'm sure you're not trying to suggest that the FO should have lived in her New York base for $16000/year. That wouldn't even pay rent there. I'm pretty sure she commuted 4000 miles because she had to, not because she wants to.

Fatigue is a shared responsibility. The company must not only come up with a schedule that reduces fatigue but a pay scale that lets a family live comfortably in one of their major bases. Housing prices in Canada have doubled since 1998. Has your salary?

No wonder people commute and work too much overtime.
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#18 Post by bobcaygeon » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:04 pm

Commuters chose to commute
BE20 Driver wrote:
bobcaygeon wrote:Our mystery pilot mentioned he was tired after his 9th day in a row at work. Last time I checked you choose to work 9 days at AC and can't be scheduled it without your approval.

Again the mention Buffalo and the FO traveled 4000 km prior to work by her choice instead of using the time provided to her to rest. Dan Adamus "forgot" that part.
I haven't watched this yet. That said, what if the AC guy is in year 1-4 and NEEDS to do 9 days just to keep the lights on at home? I do a crap ton of overtime - not because I want to but because I have to.

Same for Colgan. I'm sure you're not trying to suggest that the FO should have lived in her New York base for $16000/year. That wouldn't even pay rent there. I'm pretty sure she commuted 4000 miles because she had to, not because she wants to.

Fatigue is a shared responsibility. The company must not only come up with a schedule that reduces fatigue but a pay scale that lets a family live comfortably in one of their major bases. Housing prices in Canada have doubled since 1998. Has your salary?

No wonder people commute and work too much overtime.
Commuters choose to commute.

Has anybody else's wage double to match house prices? You know the answer...

Stats Canada numbers show what the average and median wages are in this country and pilots are doing just fine even when you eliminate the top 5% from the average.

If the "mystery captain" can't live on AC wages without OT, he has a problem...
Pilots love to bunch their days together to maximize their stretches of time off. We do it to ourselves often too. You can't have it both ways.

Minimum wage in Ontario is 10.25 and 9.00 in New York City. I don't think pilots should make minimum wage by any means but tens of thousands work for those wages (sadly) and pay their bills because they live within their means. Airline pilots choose to commute

Pilots love to bitch about the price of food/coffee when they work but nearly every person they deal within the food industry is near minimum wage. The rampies survive too and I'm pretty sure they don't commute. Nearly everyone working at Pearson makes less than you....

As for night flying, I agree changes need to be made. Do US carriers use a 3rd pilot on transcon red eyes similar to yyz-sfo?

The part of the W5 show that was ridiculous was the 50% of pilots sleep in flights survey. They sleep because they are legally allowed to.

The Zurich incident left out that he didn't follow the guidelines and then took control when he wasn't supposed to as per the rules/SOPS. Shit happens when you don't follow the rules...
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Re: W5 investigation: Startling number of pilots report routinely falling asleep in the skies

#19 Post by yycflyguy » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:37 am

bobcaygeon wrote:
Commuters choose to commute.

Has anybody else's wage double to match house prices? You know the answer...

She was living with her parents near Seattle because she could not afford to rent in the Newark area. She didn't own a house.

Stats Canada numbers show what the average and median wages are in this country and pilots are doing just fine even when you eliminate the top 5% from the average.

If you haven't noticed, airline pilot WAWCON in Canada has been deteriorating for 15+ years. How low do you think the bar should be set?

If the "mystery captain" can't live on AC wages without OT, he has a problem...
Pilots love to bunch their days together to maximize their stretches of time off. We do it to ourselves often too. You can't have it both ways.

Some pilots DO need saving from themselves. The senior guys that can block time together to get stretches of time off are also cherry picking the flying they do which tends to be highly productive, daytime flying. So, yes, they do have it both ways.

Minimum wage in Ontario is 10.25 and 9.00 in New York City. I don't think pilots should make minimum wage by any means but tens of thousands work for those wages (sadly) and pay their bills because they live within their means. Airline pilots choose to commute

Again, the Colgan Air FO was commuter due to necessity as her "big break" in the airline industry was only paying $16,000. FYI, $16k a year translates to approximately $8/hr.

Pilots love to bitch about the price of food/coffee when they work but nearly every person they deal within the food industry is near minimum wage. The rampies survive too and I'm pretty sure they don't commute. Nearly everyone working at Pearson makes less than you....

Not true. Our flat pay pilots at AC make less than Dispatchers, AMEs and yup, the Service Director FA makes MUCH more than our RP/flat pay pilots

As for night flying, I agree changes need to be made. Do US carriers use a 3rd pilot on transcon red eyes similar to yyz-sfo?

No, but they use a minimum 3 pilot crew for ALL trans Atlantic flights. Canadian carriers do not. The SFO incident would not have been as fatiguing if they didn't do a LGA turn followed by a nearly 2 hour wait in YYZ before the SFO sector arriving at 3:00AM body clock time after starting Reserve duty at 5AM

The part of the W5 show that was ridiculous was the 50% of pilots sleep in flights survey. They sleep because they are legally allowed to.

No, they sleep because they are fatigued and there is an allowance to sleep. Did you miss the part where 1 in 5 admitted to involuntary sleep?

The Zurich incident left out that he didn't follow the guidelines and then took control when he wasn't supposed to as per the rules/SOPS. Shit happens when you don't follow the rules...
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