Operate under another company's AOC?

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marakii
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Operate under another company's AOC?

#1 Post by marakii » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:12 pm

Can an individual ask another individual that currently runs a 702 service to operate their airplane under the existing individual (sub-contract) only because of the location and opportunity .

Has it been done lately? And is it difficult for TC to approve?

Thanks
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#2 Post by trey kule » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:34 pm

Things may have changed, but the holder of the AOC is completely responsable for aircraft, pilots, maintenance under their OC.

They can take on an aircraft, pilots etc., but, unless things have changed drastically, they would require to be put on the AOC's maintenance schedule. Pilots would have to undertake the company training, and ops, dispatch, w&b, record keeping etc, all have to be done in accordance with the AOC.

You can confirm this with someone who is current, but I can not see any operator essentially lending you their OC, and incurring the liability issues without having control over things..
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#3 Post by cncpc » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:01 pm

marakii wrote:Can an individual ask another individual that currently runs a 702 service to operate their airplane under the existing individual (sub-contract) only because of the location and opportunity .

Has it been done lately? And is it difficult for TC to approve?

Thanks
I have done it, and the rest is as Trey Kule says above.

We did it strictly legally for a LIDAR contract.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#4 Post by cncpc » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:03 pm

trey kule wrote:Things may have changed, but the holder of the AOC is completely responsable for aircraft, pilots, maintenance under their OC.

They can take on an aircraft, pilots etc., but, unless things have changed drastically, they would require to be put on the AOC's maintenance schedule. Pilots would have to undertake the company training, and ops, dispatch, w&b, record keeping etc, all have to be done in accordance with the AOC.

You can confirm this with someone who is current, but I can not see any operator essentially lending you their OC, and incurring the liability issues without having control over things..

All correct except;

If by take on an aircraft, you mean lease the wannabe operator's airplane, they can do that, but they can't also take pilots from the aircraft operator. The short form lease requires that the lessor is not providing crew.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#5 Post by marakii » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:07 am

cncpc wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:03 pm
trey kule wrote:Things may have changed, but the holder of the AOC is completely responsable for aircraft, pilots, maintenance under their OC.

They can take on an aircraft, pilots etc., but, unless things have changed drastically, they would require to be put on the AOC's maintenance schedule. Pilots would have to undertake the company training, and ops, dispatch, w&b, record keeping etc, all have to be done in accordance with the AOC.

You can confirm this with someone who is current, but I can not see any operator essentially lending you their OC, and incurring the liability issues without having control over things..

All correct except;

If by take on an aircraft, you mean lease the wannabe operator's airplane, they can do that, but they can't also take pilots from the aircraft operator. The short form lease requires that the lessor is not providing crew.
So if my friend is operating a Day Vfr sightseeing operation with one airplane and has their own AOC but he needs another airplane added to the fleet which I can provide but he can't financially can I add my airplane to his operating certificate and we share the sightseeing operation under one umbrella?
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#6 Post by digits_ » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:12 am

marakii wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:07 am
cncpc wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:03 pm
trey kule wrote:Things may have changed, but the holder of the AOC is completely responsable for aircraft, pilots, maintenance under their OC.

They can take on an aircraft, pilots etc., but, unless things have changed drastically, they would require to be put on the AOC's maintenance schedule. Pilots would have to undertake the company training, and ops, dispatch, w&b, record keeping etc, all have to be done in accordance with the AOC.

You can confirm this with someone who is current, but I can not see any operator essentially lending you their OC, and incurring the liability issues without having control over things..

All correct except;

If by take on an aircraft, you mean lease the wannabe operator's airplane, they can do that, but they can't also take pilots from the aircraft operator. The short form lease requires that the lessor is not providing crew.
So if my friend is operating a Day Vfr sightseeing operation with one airplane and has their own AOC but he needs another airplane added to the fleet which I can provide but he can't financially can I add my airplane to his operating certificate and we share the sightseeing operation under one umbrella?
You can be the legal owner of the airplane while leasing it out to your friend, but your friend will have completele control of your airplane. From TC's point of view, your friend operates the airplane. If you want to fly your plane after it's been put on his AOC, you will have to ask his permission. If you work for the company and want to fly your plane, you will have to go through your friend's trianing program.

He can, of course, pay you for this, as a salary, hourly rate, lease, whatever you come up with.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#7 Post by oldtimer » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:01 pm

Many moons ago, a bush airline operated a few Norseman aircraft. A pilot who owned his own Norseman wanted to put it on the operators OC but at that time that pilot was able to fly for the operator but was not allowed to fly his airplane so he "sold" it to the air operator for a "fee" and then was able to fly his airplane. I understand things have changed since then but that is apparently one loophole you can check out.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#8 Post by digits_ » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:18 pm

oldtimer wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:01 pm
Many moons ago, a bush airline operated a few Norseman aircraft. A pilot who owned his own Norseman wanted to put it on the operators OC but at that time that pilot was able to fly for the operator but was not allowed to fly his airplane so he "sold" it to the air operator for a "fee" and then was able to fly his airplane. I understand things have changed since then but that is apparently one loophole you can check out.
No need to fake a sale, you can just lease it. Most smart operators don't own their planes, they lease it from another company they own, to minimize liability. Not sure if it actually helps if something goes wrong, but it is apparently a commonly used technique.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#9 Post by cncpc » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:24 pm

digits_ wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:12 am
marakii wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:07 am
cncpc wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:03 pm



All correct except;

If by take on an aircraft, you mean lease the wannabe operator's airplane, they can do that, but they can't also take pilots from the aircraft operator. The short form lease requires that the lessor is not providing crew.
So if my friend is operating a Day Vfr sightseeing operation with one airplane and has their own AOC but he needs another airplane added to the fleet which I can provide but he can't financially can I add my airplane to his operating certificate and we share the sightseeing operation under one umbrella?
You can be the legal owner of the airplane while leasing it out to your friend, but your friend will have completele control of your airplane. From TC's point of view, your friend operates the airplane. If you want to fly your plane after it's been put on his AOC, you will have to ask his permission. If you work for the company and want to fly your plane, you will have to go through your friend's trianing program.

He can, of course, pay you for this, as a salary, hourly rate, lease, whatever you come up with.
I doubt that is correct. It certainly wasn't in my experience. Doing so violates a required clause in the lease agreement filed to register the aircraft to the effect the the Lessor shall not provide aircrew to operate the leased aircraft. If it does, it is operating a commercial air service without a license.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#10 Post by digits_ » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:27 pm

cncpc wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:24 pm
digits_ wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:12 am
marakii wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:07 am


So if my friend is operating a Day Vfr sightseeing operation with one airplane and has their own AOC but he needs another airplane added to the fleet which I can provide but he can't financially can I add my airplane to his operating certificate and we share the sightseeing operation under one umbrella?
You can be the legal owner of the airplane while leasing it out to your friend, but your friend will have completele control of your airplane. From TC's point of view, your friend operates the airplane. If you want to fly your plane after it's been put on his AOC, you will have to ask his permission. If you work for the company and want to fly your plane, you will have to go through your friend's trianing program.

He can, of course, pay you for this, as a salary, hourly rate, lease, whatever you come up with.
I doubt that is correct. It certainly wasn't in my experience. Doing so violates a required clause in the lease agreement filed to register the aircraft to the effect the the Lessor shall not provide aircrew to operate the leased aircraft. If it does, it is operating a commercial air service without a license.
What exactly is illegal? He will be a trained employee of his friend's company, operating under his friend's AOC. There is no law saying an employee can't own the airplane he is flying. He doesn't control the airplane, he just flies it under his friend's AOC.

The lessor is only providing the airplane. His friend = the lessee = the AOC holder is operating and traning the crew that is being put in the airplane.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#11 Post by HiFlyChick » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:56 pm

cncpc wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:24 pm
I doubt that is correct. It certainly wasn't in my experience. Doing so violates a required clause in the lease agreement filed to register the aircraft to the effect the the Lessor shall not provide aircrew to operate the leased aircraft. If it does, it is operating a commercial air service without a license.
Actually, it is correct, provided the owner is an employee of the Lessee - I know someone who did just that. The Lessor is not considered to be providing aircrew if they are not paying or training them, and if they have no control over the conditions of their employment. Make no mistake, though, the owner of the aircraft must undergo the same training as everyone else, and cannot simply take the aircraft as if it was their own (i.e. they are under the authority of the Ops Mgr and Chief Pilot). They are subject to the same rules of dispatch, must follow the Lessee's COM, and use their SOPs. Not sure about payment, but in my friend's case, they were on the payroll the same as any other employee - I wouldn't want to say you can just do whatever you want for payment or you may start to look like something other than an employee.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#12 Post by cncpc » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:03 pm

HiFlyChick wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:56 pm
cncpc wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:24 pm
I doubt that is correct. It certainly wasn't in my experience. Doing so violates a required clause in the lease agreement filed to register the aircraft to the effect the the Lessor shall not provide aircrew to operate the leased aircraft. If it does, it is operating a commercial air service without a license.
Actually, it is correct, provided the owner is an employee of the Lessee - I know someone who did just that. The Lessor is not considered to be providing aircrew if they are not paying or training them, and if they have no control over the conditions of their employment. Make no mistake, though, the owner of the aircraft must undergo the same training as everyone else, and cannot simply take the aircraft as if it was their own (i.e. they are under the authority of the Ops Mgr and Chief Pilot). They are subject to the same rules of dispatch, must follow the Lessee's COM, and use their SOPs. Not sure about payment, but in my friend's case, they were on the payroll the same as any other employee - I wouldn't want to say you can just do whatever you want for payment or you may start to look like something other than an employee.
That makes the lease provision forbidding the lessor from providing aircrew meaningless. The fact that the owner has jimmied up some "employment" arrangement doesn't change that. It is the providing aircrew that is prohibited. Paying for the pilot/owner separately from the airplane doesn't make what is illegal legal. There are very good public policy reasons why the lessor can't also fly the airplane.

The out may be if the airplane is owned by a limited company, and the owner, or one of the owners of the limited company is the pilot. In that case, the limited company is a distinct legal entity.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#13 Post by digits_ » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:17 pm

cncpc wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:03 pm

That makes the lease provision forbidding the lessor from providing aircrew meaningless. The fact that the owner has jimmied up some "employment" arrangement doesn't change that. It is the providing aircrew that is prohibited. Paying for the pilot/owner separately from the airplane doesn't make what is illegal legal. There are very good public policy reasons why the lessor can't also fly the airplane.

The out may be if the airplane is owned by a limited company, and the owner, or one of the owners of the limited company is the pilot. In that case, the limited company is a distinct legal entity.
Transport wants to make sure that everyone who flies an airplane on an AOC jumps through all the hoops, and follows the approved system: MCM manual, ops manual, training, supervision pilot - chief pilot - ops manager, SMS system etc.

What is not allowed, is buying an airplane, leasing it with yourself as crew WITHOUT doing all the training etc from the AOC holder.

I've seen it happen, and transport had no issue adding the plane to the AOC. They will most likely check the training files on their next audit though, to make sure the plane lessor/owner/whatever passed the required training.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#14 Post by cncpc » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:37 pm

digits_ wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:17 pm
cncpc wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:03 pm

That makes the lease provision forbidding the lessor from providing aircrew meaningless. The fact that the owner has jimmied up some "employment" arrangement doesn't change that. It is the providing aircrew that is prohibited. Paying for the pilot/owner separately from the airplane doesn't make what is illegal legal. There are very good public policy reasons why the lessor can't also fly the airplane.

The out may be if the airplane is owned by a limited company, and the owner, or one of the owners of the limited company is the pilot. In that case, the limited company is a distinct legal entity.
Transport wants to make sure that everyone who flies an airplane on an AOC jumps through all the hoops, and follows the approved system: MCM manual, ops manual, training, supervision pilot - chief pilot - ops manager, SMS system etc.

What is not allowed, is buying an airplane, leasing it with yourself as crew WITHOUT doing all the training etc from the AOC holder.

I've seen it happen, and transport had no issue adding the plane to the AOC. They will most likely check the training files on their next audit though, to make sure the plane lessor/owner/whatever passed the required training.
The Standard doesn't say that the lessor shall not provide aircrew unless they go through training. It says the lessor shall not provide aircrew. The public policy objective is partially to not allow some unholy mix of gobshite operators and gobshite "aviation enthusiasts" with the money for a plane and no one willing to hire them to get around the rules against operating an illegal air service. Hiring the owner to fly is a sham. Plain and simple. In 40 years I've never heard of a respectable operator leasing an airplane and then hiring the owner to fly it. I've never even heard of some knacker with an OC doing that. I have heard of an operator hiring the owner to fly other planes in the fleet, but not the one he owned.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#15 Post by Big Pistons Forever » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:40 am

What CAR standard are you referring to ?
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#16 Post by HiFlyChick » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:03 am

The question lies in the definition of "providing aircrew"....

If a person is paid, trained, supervised and insured by a particular company and is employed by that company, how could they be considered to have been provided by another company? If the condition of the lease is that a certain pilot must be allowed to fly the aircraft, then I can see where there could be a perception of impropriety, however, if the holder of the AOC demands high standards and is only willing to employ a pilot who meets those standards, what assets the pilot owns is irrelevant.

The rules are to ensure that the commercial operation of the aircraft is done safely and that all TC requirements under the AOC have been met. cncpc - just because you have no personal knowledge of it being done does not mean that it's a shady operation or sub-standard.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#17 Post by Bede » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:21 pm

cncpc wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:37 pm
In 40 years I've never heard of a respectable operator leasing an airplane and then hiring the owner to fly it. I've never even heard of some knacker with an OC doing that. I have heard of an operator hiring the owner to fly other planes in the fleet, but not the one he owned.
I worked for a company that did just that with 2 different aircraft and 2 different owners. Then again, said operator wasn't exactly respectable....

It is legal though as long as the "leasor" is hired as an employee and not as a Co dition of the lease.
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Re: Operate under another company's AOC?

#18 Post by cncpc » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:17 am

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:40 am
What CAR standard are you referring to ?
I've been trying to track that down, BPF, but leasing regs now seem to be entirely focused on leases between Canadian and foreign operators. If I remember correctly, the registration application used to have a part for leased aircraft in which you had to check several boxes, one including that the lessor was not providing aircrew to operate the aircraft.
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