C-Series now controlled by Airbus

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C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#1 Post by pelmet » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:00 pm

Thought that it was big enough news to become its own thread....If not, the moderators can merge them.

"Bombardier Inc. has struck an agreement to sell control of its marquee C Series airliner program to Europe's Airbus Group SE, a bet that handing the keys to a better-financed global giant will ensure the Canadian plane maker's future in the face of relentless competition and punishingly high tariffs imposed by the United States.

The C Series program, Bombardier's big venture to drive commercial aerospace revenue over the next two decades, has been at the centre of major political and investor drama in Canada since its inception. The single-aisle airliner's development at a cost of $6-billion (U.S.) drove Bombardier to the brink of bankruptcy in 2015 before Quebec handed the company a lifeline by investing $1-billion in the plane.

Quebec supports the transaction with Airbus, calling it the best solution to protect and create jobs in a sector vital to the province's economy. Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, a major Bombardier shareholder, backs the tie-up. Ottawa has also offered a preliminary endorsement of the transaction, saying it would require review under federal investment law.

Analysis: Bombardier deal kills dream of a new all-Canadian major commercial jet maker

"[This deal] brings certainty to the future of the program," Bombardier chief executive Alain Bellemare told reporters on a conference call late Monday after the agreement was announced. "It increases the level of confidence that the aircraft is here to stay."

Although Bombardier itself has not been sold, the deal is an acknowledgment that the company could not go it alone on the global market for passenger airlines.

Boeing Co. is suing Bombardier, saying it benefited from unfair government subsidies that allowed it to sell the C Series at "absurdly low" prices in the United States. The trade challenge is widely seen as a cynical bid to kill the aircraft's prospects in the United States and threaten jobs in Britain, where Bombardier builds C Series wings. The U.S. Department of Commerce has slapped preliminary duties of nearly 300 per cent on Bombardier C Series planes. Brazilian rival Embraer SA has also launched a trade challenge against the Canadian plane maker.

In 2015, Bombardier turned to Airbus as a potential partner to keep the C Series alive amid a major cash crunch, but talks fell apart after they were leaked to the media. The Canadian plane maker is turning to Airbus again now for financial and institutional heft as the battles with Boeing and Embraer grow more intense.

"The stars were all aligned this time," Airbus chief executive Tom Enders said. "I have no doubt that our partnership with Bombardier will boost sales and the value of this program tremendously."

Under the agreement, Airbus said it will take a 50.01-per-cent interest in the C Series limited partnership for no cash consideration as the C Series becomes part of Airbus's aircraft product lineup. In exchange, it will offer Bombardier's 100- to 150-seat plane its global procurement, sales and marketing and customer support expertise. Bombardier's stake will be 31 per cent and Quebec will own about 19 per cent when the deal is finalized.

Bombardier will continue to fund the plane's early production through the limited partnership as well as any cash shortfalls up to $700-million over the first three years of the deal. Airbus also obtains warrants for 100 million subordinate voting shares in C Series parent Bombardier Inc. and the right to buy Bombardier's stake in the partnership at a later date.

No cash is changing hands in the deal and the C Series partnership assumes no debt as part of the transaction, the partners said. All of Bombardier's current C Series final assembly in Mirabel, Que., will remain and Airbus has pledged to set up additional factory space for the C Series at an existing Airbus facility in Mobile, Ala.

The partnership should more than double the value of the C Series program and ensure the airliner realizes its full potential, Mr. Bellemare said. There were customers wanting to place C Series orders who remained unsure about the plane's viability in the long term, Mr. Enders said. That uncertainty has now been lifted, he said.

The plane had garnered 360 firm orders as of the end of 2016, but no significant new orders in more than a year.

The decision by Boeing to attack Bombardier through a trade war has now backfired on the U.S. giant as a result of the deal between the Canadian plane maker and Airbus, said Jerry ****, president of Unifor, which represents workers who make Bombardier's Q400 turboprop plane in Toronto. The combination of Airbus and Bombardier creates a "bigger monster" for Boeing to face, he said.

Chad Bown, a former Obama administration and World Bank economic official, said the deal appears to allow assembly to be moved to Alabama, something that would give Bombardier and Airbus the ability to "tariff-jump" if necessary in the event the U.S. International Trade Commission upholds the preliminary Commerce decisions and penalizes the C Series.

"Even if the Trump administration imposed final anti-dumping and countervailing duties on imports of the C Series, those jets that would be 'built' in Alabama would presumably not be hit with the tariffs," Mr. Bown, now a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington, wrote in an e-mail.

Bombardier's founding family made some courageous moves to get the C Series to market and another by doing this deal with Airbus, said Karl Moore, a management specialist at McGill University. "I guess their view is they'd rather have this as part of their heritage and own a chunk of it than own 100 per cent of something that isn't flying."

It will also raise questions in Quebec's national assembly and the House of Commons about what exactly Quebec got for its $1-billion investment in the C Series and whether Airbus's ownership of Bombardier's premier aircraft program is the best answer for Canada. The airliner is the first all-new single-aisle aircraft to come to market worldwide in nearly 30 years.

"On the surface, Bombardier's new proposed partnership with Airbus on this aircraft would help position the C Series for success by combining excellence in innovation with increased market access and an unrivalled global sales force," said Navdeep Bains, federal Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development.

"Bombardier's management, under Alain Bellemare's leadership, has made a very good business decision to address the challenges the company has been facing," said the Caisse de dépôt. "This agreement with Airbus strengthens the company, improves its prospects for growth, and makes the company more robust over the long term."

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report ... e36610340/
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#2 Post by Rudy » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:19 pm

Is it really this easy to "tariff-jump"? Seems like the Americans aren't going to like this.
I wonder if Airbus is going to give it a new name.
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#3 Post by Panama Jack » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:19 am

I hate to say this, but the US has not acted in a very endearing way to it's long-time friends and allies recently. It's almost to the point where "with friends like this, who needs enemies?"
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#4 Post by pelmet » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:10 am

Rudy wrote:Is it really this easy to "tariff-jump"? Seems like the Americans aren't going to like this.
I wonder if Airbus is going to give it a new name.
Actually, it may depend on how you look at it. Trump could call it a victory as a second line is proposed at the Airbus facility in Alabama meaning American jobs. And Alabama is a red state versus blue Washington state. Boeing may be the big loser. I hope so. I was a big fan compared to the Airbus idea but they seem to have lost me as a fan.
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#5 Post by LittleNelly » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:39 am

I don't see why Canadians are celebrating.. we now have subsidized an American company, one of the most profitable airlines in the world, and now a massive European corporation. And the grande prize is manufacturing jobs in the US. How is this a victory for Canada?

How is bombardier supposed to recoup a $6 billion investment on only 30% of profits of a program that won't sell much anyway... the company is trucking towards bankruptcy.

The real winners are Airbus(obviously since they got an entire program for FREE!) and the US/Boeing(manufacturing jobs and what Boeing wanted in the first place..... THE STATUS QOU DOUPOLY!)

Airbus will not push the cs300 very hard, it indirectly competes against their line. Both Airbus and Boeing push the upgauging, its why the 100-130 seat market is pretty much dead. And the 190E2 has an advantage over the cs100 as it's the same economics but at a much lower cost.

You can blame Boeing all you want but the program was dying just fine on its own before the fight started. Nobody was buying it. Air Canada did it in large part to ditch its maintenance obligations in YUL, and well who wouldn't take the deal that Delta got... $19 million per plane... but it did lead to almost $1 billion in losses for Bombardier.

And to top it off, to show how worthless the program had gotten Bombardier "sold" control of the program for a whopping $0!
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#6 Post by Rockie » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:14 am

Boeing and the sociopathic infant in the Whitehouse tried to kill a competitor and ended up strengthening another. Yet another example of the world facing America instead of falling into line behind like those idiots expect it to.
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#7 Post by fish4life » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:36 am

Rockie wrote:Boeing and the sociopathic infant in the Whitehouse tried to kill a competitor and ended up strengthening another. Yet another example of the world facing America instead of falling into line behind like those idiots expect it to.
Except Trump can easily call this a win since he just created American jobs
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#8 Post by Rockie » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:47 am

Trump can and does say anything he likes and a subset of the human race believes him no matter how outlandish or provably false it is. Truth is simply not a consideration for either of them.

The Trump wrecking ball is lining the world up against the US in ways they’re too stupid to care about or even recognize. I’m sure there are intelligent people at Boeing though who wish they had just left the C-Series alone to survive or fail on its own. Now with Airbus backing it’s around for good.
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#9 Post by Loner » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:32 am

Canada seems to have some experience in letting our "intellectual" properties leave this great country...Diefenbaker government is another example...sad but that's business I guess
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#10 Post by LittleNelly » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:36 am

I really don't think Boeing cares. It's been clear in the past both Boeing and Airbus's endgame is maintaining the doupoly they have. The future of the doupoly is now secure.. mission accomplished for Boeing and Airbus!
They'll be a few orders for the c series as a niche market but no game changer to upset the balance of power in the industry.

Boeing said they didn't want another state-subsidized manufacturer depressing industry margins.. well Bombardier aerospace is effectively dead now..... the problem for Boeing is now gone.

And don't fool yourselves... airbus felt the same way, they just got to play the "good guy", but they were just "buying" out the competition.
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#11 Post by daedalusx » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:45 am

LittleNelly wrote:I really don't think Boeing cares. It's been clear in the past both Boeing and Airbus's endgame is maintaining the doupoly they have. The future of the doupoly is now secure.. mission accomplished for Boeing and Airbus!
They'll be a few orders for the c series as a niche market but no game changer to upset the balance of power in the industry.

Boeing said they didn't want another state-subsidized manufacturer depressing industry margins.. well Bombardier aerospace is effectively dead now..... the problem for Boeing is now gone.

And don't fool yourselves... airbus felt the same way, they just got to play the "good guy", but they were just "buying" out the competition.
Yep. Yet we get all those savant useful idiots here wetting themselves because 'muh drumfp' ...
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#12 Post by teacher » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:46 pm

ANALYSIS: Airbus-CSeries deal raises new Bombardier questions

19 OCTOBER, 2017 SOURCE: FLIGHT DASHBOARD BY: JON HEMMERDINGER BOSTON

Bombardier's deal to grant Airbus majority ownership of CSeries throws a needed lifeline to a flagship aircraft that observers widely compliment for efficiency, technological advances and relatively smooth entry-into-service.

But the deal's fine print highlights Bombardier's challenges, and raises the possibility Bombardier might eventually sell all of CSeries to Airbus.

Meanwhile, a Boeing-led trade dispute simmers.

It all makes for a dramatic entanglement of three of the world's leading aircraft manufacturers – a tussle over an advanced aircraft with uncertain commercial success.

"Having Airbus now take over the assembly and the sales of [CSeries] – all of a sudden this is real drama," says Darryl Jenkins, executive director of think tank American Aviation Institute. "What is Airbus going to do with this advanced technology? That to me is the interesting thing."

"The transaction illustrates Bombardier’s… difficulties in winning CSeries orders, pressures on cash flows and trade pressures," says Fitch Ratings in a 17 October research note. "At the same time, Airbus’ agreement also highlights that the CSeries is high-quality aircraft with very positive operational reports from initial customers."

The agreement, announced 16 October, calls for Airbus to acquire 50.01% of the CSeries Aircraft Limited Partnership – the entity that manufactures and sells the aircraft. The companies expect the deal to close in the second half of 2018.

Bombardier would be left with 31% ownership, and government corporation Investissement Quebec would hold 19%, the companies say.

Currently, Bombardier owns 62% of the partnership and Investissement Quebec owns 38%.

Adding another chapter to Canada’s star-crossed aviation history, the deal ends Bombardier’s decade-long, independent pursuit of the small narrowbody segment. When the programme was launched in 2008, the CSeries represented arguably the Canadian industry’s most ambitious project since the Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow, an elite fighter design cancelled in the late-1950s over budgetary pressures in Ottawa.

But glitches with the CSeries’ advanced fly-by-wire controls during flight testing set back entry into service by 2.5 years. The CS100 and CS300 have operated smoothly for the two launch operators, but production bottlenecks have prevented Bombardier from ramping up deliveries to raise cash.

In the end, Bombardier was forced to “sell” a majority share of the programme to Airbus for no cash in return, handing the CSeries off to a company that had often belittled the CSeries in public and undermined it at the negotiating table with interested airlines.

In addition, Airbus and Bombardier say they intend to open a CSeries final assembly line in Mobile, Alabama. The companies would produce aircraft for US customers at that site, avoiding a potential 300% tariff on CSeries imported into the USA.

"This is game changing for Bombardier," Bombardier chief executive Alain Bellemare said during a conference call. "By combining Airbus's global reach and scale with Bombardier's state-of-the-art aircraft, we will create tremendous value."

"We will also secure jobs," he said, predicting the deal will lead to more sales and more employment.

Bombardier chief financial officer John Di Bert estimates Airbus's involvement doubles the value of CSeries to "something that is north of" $4 billion.

THE DETAILS

Analysts quickly noted that the agreement requires Airbus to pay nothing at closing for an entity valued at $4 billion.

Airbus will, however, supply CSeries with sales, marketing, procurement and customer support – the commercial heft the companies say will help make CSeries a success.

The deal also gives Airbus a call option to purchase all Bombardier's CSeries interest after seven-and-a-half years. Bombardier likewise gains a put option — allowing it to require Airbus purchase the shares, the companies say.

Bellemare calls those options a "safeguard" in the event the CSeries programme flounders. But, he adds: "We are not doing that with the objective of not making it work".

"The intention is to make this a huge commercial success," he says. "We have no intention to exit that segment of the market."

Rob Morris, head of FlightGlobal's Flight Ascend Consultancy, sees a sale as likely.

His guess? "If it goes well, Airbus will call. And if it goes badly, Bombardier will put," Morris says. "It does seem to me that in seven years time Bombardier will be completely out of CSeries."

If that happens, Bombardier's commercial division would have CRJs and Q400s – both of which face extreme competitive pressure, Morris notes.

The CRJ, though still competitive in the USA thanks to provision in pilot contracts, has older technology than in-development models like Embraer's E-Jets E2 and Mitsubishi Aircraft MRJs.

Meanwhile, Bombardier has 49 outstanding Q400 orders. By comparison, ATR has 222 outstanding turboprop orders, according to Flight Fleets Analyzer. Adding more pressure, Embraer has recently discussed launching a new turboprop.

"Perhaps in a few years Bombardier will be completely out of commercial aerospace, with only their business jet business left," Morris says.

The Airbus deal would also leave Bombardier with just two of seven seats on the CSeries' board. Investissement Quebec would have one, and Airbus would gain four seats, including power to name the board chair, according to the companies.

Airbus and Bombardier officials also think they will avoid a potential 300% import tariff by opening a US assembly site.

"When you produce an aircraft in the US, it is not subject to an import duty under US rules," says Bellemare on 16 October.

The US Commerce Department in recent weeks ruled preliminarily to issue a 300% import tariff following an investigation stemming from an April petition filed by Boeing.

Boeing accused Bombardier of receiving heavy subsidies and then violating trade laws by selling CS100s to Delta Air Lines for a significant loss.

Bombardier and Delta have denied the claims, and the Commerce Department's ruling remains subject to a final ruling and a separate investigation by the US International Trade Commission.

Regardless, Boeing says Airbus' plan to open a US assembly site will not enable the companies to skirt the tax.

"Any duties finally levied against the CSeries… will have to be paid on any imported CSeries airplane or part," said a Boeing tweet attributed to general counsel Michael Luttig.

THE RIGHT MOVE?

Financial analysts and observers believe Bombardier made the right move, and they see a bright future for CSeries.

"We believe the support of Airbus could be the catalyst that turns airline interest into firm orders," says a report from the National Bank of Canada. "The deal effectively turns the CSeries into an Airbus program, which means it will have the full sales support of Airbus behind it."

Moody's Investor Services says CSeries is now "in prime position to capture the majority" of expected demand for 6,000 aircraft in the 100- to 150-seat category in the next 20 years.

Jenkins at the American Aviation Institute thinks CSeries will mature under Airbus into the aircraft Bombardier has long envisioned.

CSeries is unique, he says, providing a more comfortable ride for passengers and technological improvements that translate into significant fuel savings.

"It changes route economics", making unprofitable routes profitable and turning marginal routes into real moneymakers, he says.

Airbus might possibly fold some CSeries technology into A320s. Or, it could develop the larger version dubbed the "CS500", which Bombardier has long contemplated, Jenkins says.

Yes, a CS500 would compete with A320s, but demand for such an aircraft might exist, Jenkins says. He notes that JetBlue Airways and Spirit Airlines – both large Airbus customers – backed Bombardier against Boeing's trade petition.

"I have this hunch JetBlue or Spirit might be looking at a different aircraft in the future," he says.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-442298/
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#13 Post by Level Change » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:54 am

" No cash changed hands "

I beg to differ. $1 Billion in Canadian Taxpayer Bailout money has evaporated and been given to Airbus.
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#14 Post by confusedalot » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:52 pm

As above, canadian taxpayer money has gone out of the country, just like that.
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#15 Post by daedalusx » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:28 pm

It's only the beginning, word on the street is the Q goes bye bye as well.
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#16 Post by PostmasterGeneral » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:12 pm

The Q is their most successful product. Highly doubt that.
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#17 Post by teacher » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:53 am

Those government loans are still on the books and can still be paid back. They haven't left.

If I had to hazard a guess I can see the CS500 being announced soon. I don't see Airbus needing to invest billions into a new type to gain the same efficiencies as putting an already designed aircraft into production. If this boosts sales as many believe the net revenue flow will be the same or more likely better than BBD having gone it alone. Word on the street is that several airlines have enquired about a larger model which according to inside sources does not have the performance penalties like the 321 does versus the 320. The wing was designed to support a larger airframe all along. Here's hoping!
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#18 Post by fish4life » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:36 am

PostmasterGeneral wrote:The Q is their most successful product. Highly doubt that.
That is what will make it actually worth some money and allow them to sell it off and pay down debt.

The 74/78 seat versions of the Q aren't very cost competitive to the ATR but that new 90 seat version will probably bring its CASM down quite a bit to the point of almost being the same as the ATR except with much more speed / higher engine out ceiling for the mountains.
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#19 Post by xchox » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:42 am

Airbus A360 - Calling it!
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#20 Post by pelmet » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:36 pm

Opinion: Why Boeing vs. Bombardier Is Really About China

The trade dispute sparked by Boeing’s charges that Bombardier is dumping C Series aircraft at unfair prices is marked by loud rhetoric on both sides of the U.S.-Canada border. Ottawa’s Liberal government has threatened Boeing’s defense business in Canada and enlisted UK Prime Minister Theresa May to lobby U.S. President Donald Trump. But Canada’s attempts to derail the petitions filed by Boeing with the U.S. Commerce Department and International Trade Commission have had no effect so far. The reason: The true target is not really Canada, but China and its aircraft industry.

U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer charges that Beijing’s efforts to subsidize and create national champions and force technology transfers distorts markets throughout the world and is an “unprecedented” threat to the global trading system. Take aviation. By 2036, China is projected to be the No. 1 or No. 2 market in commercial aviation, a sector long dominated by Airbus and Boeing. Its national champion is Comac, which manufactures the ARJ21 regional jet and C919 narrow-body and is developing—with Russia—the CR929 widebody. Beijing’s “Made in China 2025” plan sets aggressive targets for its aircraft industry, tasking Comac with taking more than 10% of the domestic market for mainline commercial aircraft.

That goal is backed by mercantilist policies and substantial government subsidies. Beijing has tried to break into markets before. China has poured tens of billions of dollars into cracking the semiconductor oligopoly controlled by U.S., Japanese, South Korean and Taiwanese companies. But so far it has not been successful in securing state-of-the-art integrated-circuit manufacturing technology because the industry has worked collaboratively to frustrate Chinese mercantilist ambitions. This has prevented the semiconductor market from suffering the fate of solar photovoltaics, or steel, where the market has been gutted by excess capacity from hundreds of new Chinese businesses.

Bombardier’s China strategy amounts to aiding and abetting Chinese mercantilism in commercial aviation, with predictable consequences for the global aerospace industry. The company entered into an agreement with Comac in 2012 to explore synergies between the C Series and C919, with the goal of challenging the Airbus-Boeing duopoly. Nothing concrete came out of that, and Bombardier nearly went bankrupt in 2015 before receiving investments from Canadian provincial and federal entities of at least $3 billion.

In May 2017, the Financial Times reported that Comac and Bombardier held talks about Chinese entities buying a stake in Bombardier Commercial Aircraft or the C Series, quoting an unnamed source as saying, “everything is on the table.” That included Chinese access to Bombardier’s technologies and its marketing, distribution and support infrastructure. This potential collaboration with China is, in my opinion, the principal but unspoken reason behind Boeing’s trade complaint.

As a Canadian company, Bombardier is entitled to preferences under the North American Free Trade Act (NAFTA) that sharply restrict U.S. trade actions so long as the product qualifies as NAFTA-origin. Indeed, Canada’s entitlement to arbitration under NAFTA’s Section 19 may be its last resort in the C Series dispute short of taking its case to the World Trade Organization. Not surprisingly, the U.S. wants to eliminate Chapter 19 in the renegotiation of NAFTA now underway.

So long as components add up to 50% of transaction value or 60% of net cost, a product qualifies for NAFTA preference. What if Chinese aerospace companies gained access to those same NAFTA preferences?

In its defense against Boeing’s claims, Bombardier says more than 50% of Canadian-assembled C Series aircraft come from the U.S., including its engines and avionics. The wing comes from Bombardier’s plant in Northern Ireland, but much of the fuselage already comes from SACC in China. It is conceivable that Bombardier could incorporate NAFTA-qualified engines, avionics and subsystems, but complete the final assembly in China—and have an aircraft that still qualifies as NAFTA-origin under the current rules.

Similarly, Chinese-built aircraft branded “Bombardier” could be sold from Canada while bypassing all tariffs against a China-based manufacturer. And Bombardier technology could enable Comac to build a successor to the C919 that would be truly competitive with Airbus and Boeing offerings in China. In other words, with Chinese investment, Comac-Bombardier could rapidly stand up as a capable competitor to the Airbus-Boeing duopoly in the North American and Chinese markets.

Boeing’s complaints about C Series subsidies are getting the media attention, but Bombardier’s willingness to transfer technologies and knowhow to China is at the heart of this trade dispute.

Danny Lam is a research associate at the University of Waterloo in Ontario. His research includes work on China, NAFTA and defense issues. The views expressed are not necessarily those of Aviation Week.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... d878698bd7
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#21 Post by confusedalot » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:05 pm

Educational but irrelevant copy and paste.

Has anyone been purchasing Chinese built aircraft as of late? That is, outside of China?
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#22 Post by YYZSaabGuy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:45 am

confusedalot wrote:Educational but irrelevant copy and paste.

Has anyone been purchasing Chinese built aircraft as of late? That is, outside of China?
Nor were many folks were buying Japanese cars, apart from Japanese, until the late 1950s. Things change.
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#23 Post by Diadem » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:13 am

It used to be a ridiculous notion that a North American or European airline would buy a Brazilian jet too.
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#24 Post by confusedalot » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:36 pm

Not going to debate the Toyota presence in the market, which has been forever.

Not even going to debate Embraer; they have had products on the international market since at least 1975.

I am sure that Chinese planes, like Russian planes, would do the job as any would. But they are not visible.

Still cannot see China or Russia as serious contenders to Airbus and Boeing anytime soon. Maybe in 50 years?

So, the hype about China taking over the industry, or even making a dent, remains hype.
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crazyaviator
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Re: C-Series now controlled by Airbus

#25 Post by crazyaviator » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:14 pm

Still cannot see China or Russia as serious contenders to Airbus and Boeing anytime soon. Maybe in 50 years?

So, the hype about China taking over the industry, or even making a dent, remains hype.
NAA, Cannot see any products being sold to Canada cheaper than we can make in Canada and of GOOD quality ,,,,,,,,

I just bought a "wee-ride" trail along bicycle of HIGH quality and all info seemed to suggest it was made in Milton Ontario Canada eh. Until I looked at a sticker on the bike " Made in China "

You are foolish to think china cannot build a narrow body aircraft product that is acceptable to the bean counters in ALL western countries in 20 years !!!
Perhaps what you do not understand ( but shiny pony trudeau does ) is that GLOBALISM is designed to cut down western countries and bring up third world countries so that ALL countries are at the same level AS SLAVES to the NWO. Do you know that folks like Clinton have been giving away western technology for years? Do you know that Bombardier would have sold out to China just as easily as to the Airbus consortium?
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