Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

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splash12
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Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

Post by splash12 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:22 pm

I have researched this subject for a while but cant seem to get a satisfactory answer.If you have personal experience with this topic please feel free to pitch in.

If im on an IFR Flight plan untill i pick up my clearance am i a VFR Aircraft?(assuming its VMC) So that would mean i can go through Class E airspace (E700) Then ask for my clearance to

operate in "IFR Controlled airspace" BUT dont you need the clearance BEFORE you enter the controlled airspace? very confusing.

Now if its IMC you definitely need the clearance before you enter. unless you maintain "VFR" and ask for clearance.

This issue comes up when there is no cell reception on the ground for you to get the clearance.

Any ideas?
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Re: Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

Post by CpnCrunch » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:54 pm

Generally you phone for clearance before takeoff, and then you contact ATC when airborne. So you're IFR right from takeoff.

If you look in the CFS it will tell you where to phone for your clearance.
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Panama Jack
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Re: Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

Post by Panama Jack » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:23 pm

The terms "controlled" and "uncontrolled" when it refers to Canadian airspace only really matters to IFR traffic.

Aircraft can operate IFR in uncontrolled airspace (Class G) without an ATC Clearance, but require one when operating in Class A through E Airspace.

VFR Aircraft do not require an ATC Clearance to operate in Class G (uncontrolled), E or D (controlled) airspace.

So yes, if you are in Class E airspace you are VFR until you manage to pick up your IFR clearance. Until then thought you are required to be compliant with all VFR rules and procedures including visibility/cloud clearance requirements.
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altiplano
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Re: Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

Post by altiplano » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:10 pm

I seem to remember we used to pick up approval from centre for a VFR departure in a class E area if we couldn't get IFR release because of traffic on an approach, departing traffic ahead, or some wanker who is still doing his checks on the ramp and holding a clearance...

I can't quite remember the limitations of just departing VFR from an airport you are filed IFR from unless you're cancelling... or if it was just a courtesy thing we did with centre... so we didn't pop into their radar through 12 000' looking for a clearance...
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Re: Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

Post by CpnCrunch » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:50 pm

Probably stating the obvious, but you can only depart VFR if it's legal VFR weather. Also, depending on where you are, ATC may not like you picking up your clearance airborne.
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Re: Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

Post by Panama Jack » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:14 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:10 pm
I seem to remember we used to pick up approval from centre for a VFR departure in a class E area if we couldn't get IFR release because of traffic on an approach, departing traffic ahead, or some wanker who is still doing his checks on the ramp and holding a clearance...

I can't quite remember the limitations of just departing VFR from an airport you are filed IFR from unless you're cancelling... or if it was just a courtesy thing we did with centre... so we didn't pop into their radar through 12 000' looking for a clearance...
Yes, altiplano, you would be correct. If there is IFR traffic in the vicinity ATC needs to apply separation between your requested IFR clearance and the other existing IFR. In a non-radar area where they have to provide procedural separation, that can be a large area compared to requesting a pop-up in a radar environment.

I wanted to provide an answer to splash12's question in the context of legality, rather than in the form of airmanship, courtesy or tradition. In the US ATC is far more accommodating to pop-up clearances than in Canada- supposedly. I say that because I haven't ever requested a pop-up in either country, only when I did my Canadian Instrument Rating (after getting my US Instrument Rating) many moon ago, I was told "Canadian controllers don't really like it when you request a pop-up." "WTF" is my reply? If you can do it, give it, if you can't then that's another matter. While it is always better for a pilot to plan ahead and file a composite Flight Plan (ZVR) when expecting to depart VFR and then get an IFR clearance later on, it is far preferable to get a pop-up clearance than force your way from VFR into IMC to not inconvenience some controller who is sitting comfortably in his rolling chair with coffee in hand in some dark room.
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Re: Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

Post by Meatservo » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:47 am

I've requested the odd "pop-up" clearance and always gotten one. Well, actually as I type I can remember one centre controller who forced me to file a flight plan with FSS. I just circled around in the last place I was able to maintain VFR outside controlled airspace and got that done. I suppose if I was unable to do that I could have declared an emergency. Staying high enough above the ground not to hit it is paramount, so I couldn't care less what controllers "like", however flying around in IMC in controlled airspace is a pretty dopey thing to do as well, so I try to anticipate the need for a "popup" to in lude some time before I really need a clearance.
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Re: Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

Post by B208 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:59 am

If it's VMC you can operate VFR. That would mean operating at a VFR cruising altitude. If it is IMC or your want to operate IFR (cruising altitudes) then you will need a clearance prior to entering class E.
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Re: Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

Post by Spokes » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:16 pm

Assuming you are more than 3000 agl.
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Re: Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

Post by confusedalot » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:37 pm

wikipedia says class E is used for low levels ops and ATC is available but not required?

I'm an old guy, flying well before the new airspace designations. In an uncontrolled airspace IFR scenario, ATC could not care less about us whether we were IMC or VMC, we were non existant to them, and we would only get clearance somewhere between takeoff (the telephone), or, before entering controlled airspace whilst airborne.

Of course, 126.7 was used to the maximum for blind position transmissions.
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Re: Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

Post by CpnCrunch » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:42 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:37 pm
wikipedia says class E is used for low levels ops and ATC is available but not required?

I'm an old guy, flying well before the new airspace designations. In an uncontrolled airspace IFR scenario, ATC could not care less about us whether we were IMC or VMC, we were non existant to them, and we would only get clearance somewhere between takeoff (the telephone), or, before entering controlled airspace whilst airborne.

Of course, 126.7 was used to the maximum for blind position transmissions.
Class E is controlled airspace, so you do need a clearance to fly IFR, and the VFR minima are those for controlled airspace.
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Re: Class E airspace on an IFR Flight plan

Post by confusedalot » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:01 pm

I guess I flew too much in class G airspace (totally uncontrolled), and then suddenly ended up in airliners where everything was controlled anyway, so I never bothered to analyze the structure. :lol: Thanks for the insight.

So..this means that some poor sod taking off from YGK Kingston, Ontario, with no tower (I think), has 1200 feet to get a clearance in VMC, or is hooped into a telephone ATC clearance with a time limit, on a crappy IFR day.

Fly up North, or fly airlines, anything in between is way too complicated. :lol:

All in good fun, cheers,
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