Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

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Eric Janson
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Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#26 Post by Eric Janson » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:49 am

RocksAndProps wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:30 pm
Eric Janson wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:08 pm
I'm based in Europe and fly regularly in Australia.

I'm disputing your claims - care to back them up with actual job listings?
https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot ... -Australia

https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot ... a-Airlines
Thanks for the links.

Strange that anyone would advertise these requirements when it is impossible for anyone to have them.
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dogfood
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Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#27 Post by dogfood » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:33 am

Diadem wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:47 pm
Spandau wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:29 pm
Depending on what part of the industry you're working in, a year or two on the ramp is part of the required curriculum. You can look at it as "paying your dues", and there is an element of truth in that but more importantly without that experience you're going to be a danger to everyone out there with you, particularly yourself. Nobody at Moncton ever taught me how to run a Herman or bag an engine, how to sweep off an airplane without damaging it or yourself. How to deice, how to clean a windshield, how to deal with pissed off customers, missing freight... Thirty years later I still work the ramp every time I overnight somewhere and the only people to look after the airplane and put her to bed and wake her up in the morning is you and your crew. There's more to this racket than just "pushing throttles" and everyday there's an opportunity remove yourself from the gene pool.
If nobody ever taught you that stuff, then what does it matter if you figured it out while you were working as a rampie or as a pilot? One way or another you're out there in the cold and the wind trying to sort it out with no one helping you.
Could not agree with you more. Im my experience working the ramp was a great I don't have any regrets. How about if you don't want to work the ramp don't apply to the job. No need to come on here and bitch about it...
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Meatservo
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Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#28 Post by Meatservo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:56 am

My "ramp" days are decades in the past and I have to say from my point of view I kind of like things the way they are. Part of my job is training new copilots, and to be honest it is to their benefit that we already know them. If I had to judge the average new pilot aspirant solely on the strength of their flying abilities I don't suppose I would be predisposed to have much respect for very many of them. At least in their first few months on the line, while they are beginning to figure out how to fly half-decently, they can be of some service helping with loading, fuelling, pre-heating, covering and uncovering, et cetera, which are all part of the work. It would be painful indeed if this all had to be learned during normal line flying. We're trying to get work done here. We're not a training academy.

Additionally, from a hiring perspective, having to conduct interviews and hire people from outside the company every time there is an opening on the flight-line would be impractical for most small-to-medium companies who don't have a full-time hiring department. It's best to have a pool of candidates, and especially candidates who are available, and whose "fit" with the company is already established.

Maybe the best choice for adventure-averse aspiring pilots who wish to avoid all effort, would be to sign up for one of those "cadet" programs, and try to get straight into a scheduled 705 puppy-mill like Encore or Jazz. Where challenging concepts like "meaningful work", along with "flying a plane" are almost entirely a thing of the past. Anyone who actually still has a passion for aviation can surely tolerate some introductory and preliminary ground work. I've never seen it do anyone any harm.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#29 Post by rookiepilot » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:17 am

Meatservo wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:56 am
My "ramp" days are decades in the past and I have to say from my point of view I kind of like things the way they are. Part of my job is training new copilots, and to be honest it is to their benefit that we already know them. If I had to judge the average new pilot aspirant solely on the strength of their flying abilities I don't suppose I would be predisposed to have much respect for very many of them. At least in their first few months on the line, while they are beginning to figure out how to fly half-decently, they can be of some service helping with loading, fuelling, pre-heating, covering and uncovering, et cetera, which are all part of the work. It would be painful indeed if this all had to be learned during normal line flying. We're trying to get work done here. We're not a training academy.

Additionally, from a hiring perspective, having to conduct interviews and hire people from outside the company every time there is an opening on the flight-line would be impractical for most small-to-medium companies who don't have a full-time hiring department. It's best to have a pool of candidates, and especially candidates who are available, and whose "fit" with the company is already established.

Maybe the best choice for adventure-averse aspiring pilots who wish to avoid all effort, would be to sign up for one of those "cadet" programs, and try to get straight into a scheduled 705 puppy-mill like Encore or Jazz. Where challenging concepts like "meaningful work", along with "flying a plane" are almost entirely a thing of the past. Anyone who actually still has a passion for aviation can surely tolerate some introductory and preliminary ground work. I've never seen it do anyone any harm.
I like this post. Another thought from my chair, someday the economic cycle will turn. Sooner, probably, rather than later. Maybe then ramp skills will become rather more important.

Carry on --- :roll:
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Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#30 Post by daedalusx » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:44 am

5 years ago, I had better pay and schedule working dispatch than what I'm currently making warming up the right seat at jazz. I met a lot of great people up north and absolutely loved my time there.

In fact, even without accounting for inflation, I was making more working part time in retail 10 years ago ...
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Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#31 Post by godsrcrazy » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:28 am

My advise to all of you that do not want to work your way up is. Don't work the ramp etc. Hold out for the direct entry job and quit complaining about how no one will hire you. The ramp is an option and a way to get your foot in the door. No one is holding a gun to your head to take the job. Over the years this topic keeps coming up and has been beat to death on this forum.
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Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#32 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:39 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:17 am
Meatservo wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:56 am
My "ramp" days are decades in the past and I have to say from my point of view I kind of like things the way they are. Part of my job is training new copilots, and to be honest it is to their benefit that we already know them. If I had to judge the average new pilot aspirant solely on the strength of their flying abilities I don't suppose I would be predisposed to have much respect for very many of them. At least in their first few months on the line, while they are beginning to figure out how to fly half-decently, they can be of some service helping with loading, fuelling, pre-heating, covering and uncovering, et cetera, which are all part of the work. It would be painful indeed if this all had to be learned during normal line flying. We're trying to get work done here. We're not a training academy.

Additionally, from a hiring perspective, having to conduct interviews and hire people from outside the company every time there is an opening on the flight-line would be impractical for most small-to-medium companies who don't have a full-time hiring department. It's best to have a pool of candidates, and especially candidates who are available, and whose "fit" with the company is already established.

Maybe the best choice for adventure-averse aspiring pilots who wish to avoid all effort, would be to sign up for one of those "cadet" programs, and try to get straight into a scheduled 705 puppy-mill like Encore or Jazz. Where challenging concepts like "meaningful work", along with "flying a plane" are almost entirely a thing of the past. Anyone who actually still has a passion for aviation can surely tolerate some introductory and preliminary ground work. I've never seen it do anyone any harm.
I like this post. Another thought from my chair, someday the economic cycle will turn. Sooner, probably, rather than later. Maybe then ramp skills will become rather more important.

Carry on --- :roll:

Edit. It'll all work out, I'm sure.

http://business.financialpost.com/busin ... oped-world
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Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#33 Post by North Shore » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:23 am

^Good article, that. (Then you read the comments, and all of the semi-literate Soros/New World Order/Trudope/Bilderberg/Secret Muslim paranoid nutbars chime in..)
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Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#34 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:42 pm

North Shore wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:23 am
^Good article, that. (Then you read the comments, and all of the semi-literate Soros/New World Order/Trudope/Bilderberg/Secret Muslim paranoid nutbars chime in..)
Everyone tells me I'm foolish to have any concerns. A lot of people think it's the 1980's or 1990's all over again.

Ok.
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Re: Why is the ramp still a thing that happens?

#35 Post by EPR » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:25 pm

My experience....I am a former ramp/dockhand, lived in the North (North of the 60th) product, because at that time in our industry (2003), there was no other way to break into the 703 world flying the mighty Twin Otter, as far as I knew. I was also considered "old" (36) at the time compared to my colleagues. This didn't hinder me at all, in fact it helped because I had "life experience" that the Pilots could relate to and operating the fork-lift/zoom-boom was like 2nd nature to me because I had that sort of experience in previous jobs. The pay was absolute shit initially but thanks to a few brave souls that complained, the pay went up to $2100.00 per month..lol (we thought we had won the lottery compared to those before us)
It took 2.5 years of perseverance and hard work, watching the proverbial 6 or 7 rampies each spring, getting their shot at a check-out all the while stroking a line through their name on the "No-Flow List" (as we called it, as it seemed to stagnate forever) all the way down the 25 or so Pilot's on the waiting to fly list, just to get to your name! (we all prayed the fortunate F/O's, that had been flying for the past year would @#$!-off to Borek, as they had done in the past, but oh nooo, not in my time) Most stayed on and created a bottle neck. (just another kick in the nuts career wise) Anyways, they were all great people and I fondly look back at my time there and would only change a few things..lol, non the less it was a great experience and we made the most of it and have great memories that we will all cherish.
We are in unprecedented times as far as opportunities for new Pilots to break into the industry goes!
That being said, and with my previous experience, I would not hesitate to recommend a newbie to take that ramp/dock job (only for 1 year though, or less) given the movement we have today, and go fly that Twin Otter, in the "bush", and enjoy it because it's the only time in your career that you will actually fly an aircraft and not manage it! (managing a flight = BORING!) I actually feel sorry for the college grads that go directly into the right seat of a 705 machine, they will never know what real flying is! Yes, they make more money career wise due to their seniority number (if they don't off themselves first due to boredom), but is money really the reason you got into flying? Never was for me fortunately and I'm doing fine..lol
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