how do kids afford this racket???

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by Cat Driver »

During my fifty one years as a working pilot I was never asked how much education I had.

Incidentally I don't have much but I obviously did not need much to be successful as a pilot.

As long as you can read and write you can fly anything that is out there.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

plhought
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 489
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:02 am
Location: Calgary

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by plhought »

Honestly,

The few times I've been around the flying club/schools in the last year, after some brief chit-chat with students here & there - I would argue the majority of students are coming from quite affluent backgrounds, in which the majority of their schooling/lifestyle is supplemented by family funding.

That's fine and all really - can't fault someone for utilizing what is available for them.

I know we love the "rags-to-riches" story, but I honestly believe the flying profession is slowly becoming an exclusive prevue of the wealthy.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
confusedalot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 916
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: location, location, is what matters

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by confusedalot »

Don't have much to contribute since the costs were different in my day, but here goes.

I was lucky enough to get accepted into a completely funded aviation college program, but it was far from home, so I had part time and summer jobs to fund myself.

After the program was finished, the industry was dead as a doornail, and a flying instructors rating seemed to be the only way to go, which was not provided by the college. Had a full time job, and strange as it sounds, it was luckily 4 to midnight or midnight to 8. Which left the day open to do my training.

That was a good 40 years ago mind you, ended up with zero debt after training. Got the entry level instructor job and after that, off to the races.

Once again, perhaps not much help in these times but perhaps, with some flexibility and a bit of luck, it can be managed.

Cheers,
---------- ADS -----------
  
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.

veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.

:?

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1795
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by rookiepilot »

Look, not to be sarcastic, but someone on here awhile back, their answer was a gofundme account. It's like hey, I don't want to work, so random strangers -- (please) give me money.

Gofundme has morphed from a way to help people in crisis, to essentially an online form of begging. Cause I'm entitled.


Great if it works. A question though.

When one succeeds in this way -- charity vs perseverance-- what does that do to ones character? How does this approach in helping overcome much bigger personal and professional challenges in the future -- when on the first one -- its "give me money"?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
HansDietrich
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:33 am

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by HansDietrich »

I came here from Europe with nothing, except a suitcase and dreams. I do have an university degree and I was able to work fairly good paying jobs. I had a room mate, saved money had a shit car and the girlfriend left me because I was working full time in the office and flight training in the weekends. It took me 4 years to finish all my licenses and ratings, because I didn't want to borrow money... for the most part (a few small loans to accelerate training). I've been debt free almost from the day I started working as pilot, which guess what? IT WASN'T AT THE AGE OF 22. So, like I said before, IF your mom can't help you, if the banks won't help you, if your girlfriend won't help you, shut the hell up, go to work, stop spending money and work hard for that dream you really claim you want.

You think life gets easier when you're done your CPL and MUlti IFR? Trying living with kids and making 40K a year... Don't tell me it can't be done. Don't find excuses for your laziness and short sighted character. Instant gratification is something all these new kids seem to demand! I hate when people tell me "Oh man you're so lucky to be a pilot" Lucky??? I worked my ass off to be a pilot. I'm not lucky... I'm hard working and I didn't give up.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Das ist mir wurst...

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1795
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by rookiepilot »

Woman walks up to a famous violinist after he plays a magnificent concerto.

"Sir, I'd give everything to be able to play as you do".

He replies, "madam, I did".

--------------------

People ask me what the secret to success in business is. Listen carefully -- it's really complicated, but if you can pull it off, you will forever have little competition.

Outwork everyone, and outlast the adversity.
---------- ADS -----------
  

PROC_HDG
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:52 pm

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by PROC_HDG »

HansDietrich wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:42 pm
You think life gets easier when you're done your CPL and MUlti IFR? Try Flying A Classic Dash-8!!
oops, wrong thread

PROC_HDG
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AOW
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 464
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by AOW »

Mostly Harmless wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:26 am
While the university programs don't include flight training in their tuition, Confederation College and Sault College do. OSAP would be an option there.
Seneca College's degree program includes the flight training in the tuition too, I believe, but the tuition costs are much higher than the two other colleges, and I am not sure whether OSAP will cover this.


Not everyone in Canada lives in Ontario. So what do the other 22.4 million Canadians who live without government subsidised flight training do?
Since the OP mentioned OSAP, I made the assumption they were in Ontario. I was trying to answer a specific question, rather than the general case.

If one of the subsidized programs is not available to you, and you can't afford to pay as you go at a flight school, then the military is probably the best option.

Or do what I did and marry someone with a little more money, and preferably a family airplane. I wonder if that appears in any Tinder profiles...
---------- ADS -----------
  

TailwheelPilot
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:14 pm

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by TailwheelPilot »

Mostly Harmless wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:43 pm
I'm told that the prices range from $105,000 to $120,000 for a college program these days.... to come out into a $20,000/year job.
How about $18,008 excluding accommodation and food to come out into a $20,000/year job?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
HansDietrich
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:33 am

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by HansDietrich »

PROC_HDG wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:48 pm
HansDietrich wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:42 pm
You think life gets easier when you're done your CPL and MUlti IFR? Try Flying A Classic Dash-8!!
oops, wrong thread

PROC_HDG
I think your "Quote option" may have malfunctioned, but none the less, point taken :D Flying the Classic is like driving a Dodge Shadow; sure it gets you places, but not very exciting...
---------- ADS -----------
  
Das ist mir wurst...

cgzro
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1735
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:45 am

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by cgzro »

i remember paying for about 200 hours over 3 years by working 3 nights a week as a busboy then waiter in a restaurant. Lived at home and did not have a car. Was very hard work to get an hour or two each week. i think it worked out to two nights of work for one hour of dual or something like that and of course no car meant reduced dating.

There is no short cut, its a tough slog but as with a lot of education, if you can get it while staying at home you are way ahead.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
complexintentions
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2117
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: of my pants is unknown.

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by complexintentions »

My favourite is recreational pilots giving advice to pilots intending to make a living at it.

Yes, the tremendous sacrifice it took to get that PPL is totally analogous to slogging it out for years at the lower end of the industry wage spectrum until you hold an ATPL and a collection of ratings at an airline.

Financially totally the same. :roll:

Actually I wouldn't mind if it was just well-intentioned advice, but when it's basically just an excuse to rant and humble-brag a bit about their perilous life-path, *yawn*...
---------- ADS -----------
  
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.

User avatar
youhavecontrol
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:17 am

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by youhavecontrol »

For those of you sitting back right now offering your "Just work, it's good for ya!" "builds character.." Here's some thoughts on that from my experience:

I did not have a wealthy family, grew up in rural Alberta and lived far away from the Air Cadet program bases. I wanted as little debt as possible because I knew that initial aviation jobs had low pay.

I worked in the oil patch for about 5 years total to pay for my tuition. Why did it take that long so save up money? ...mostly because I was also paying to live in the mean-time, and I wasn't very smart with my money.. like most youth. Plus, the down-turn in the economy I had to switch jobs part-way through because the one company I was with could not keep me busy enough. I was working in the oil patch, but the most I ever made per hour was $28, because I wasn't committed to staying with that company... basically, they knew I was going to leave for flight training so there was no point in training me for heavy equipment operation ($$)

Oh yeah, and I did work part time jobs while in high-school, as early as 14. ..but do you seriously think that the $8 an hour for 4 hours, 3 times a week was enough to save up anything substantial? It had barely enough McCash to pay for my crappo car to travel to work, buy my first laptop, and that was about it.

Consider this.. how many kids can actually get a job that allows them to put back the $60-70k needed for tuition right out of high-school in less than two years? While still paying to live on their own? Without choosing a dangerous job?

One of my work friends was a pilot who worked the oilfield to help pay off his tuition costs. He was killed on the job and I saw it happen. I was 19 when I saw it happen.

Like others have said, there really is no easy option. For me, it was hard work... and yes it did build character, but it did take a lot of time and definitely wasn't some simple, easy thing. I remember the burst of motivation I got while looking up as the pipe-line patrol aircraft would fly overhead. Some days, seeing that Citabria fly over was a joy... while other days it was agony.
---------- ADS -----------
  
"I found that Right Rudder you kept asking for."

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1795
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by rookiepilot »

complexintentions wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:16 am
My favourite is recreational pilots giving advice to pilots intending to make a living at it.

Yes, the tremendous sacrifice it took to get that PPL is totally analogous to slogging it out for years at the lower end of the industry wage spectrum until you hold an ATPL and a collection of ratings at an airline.

Financially totally the same. :roll:

Actually I wouldn't mind if it was just well-intentioned advice, but when it's basically just an excuse to rant and humble-brag a bit about their perilous life-path, *yawn*...
Haters always gotta hate people who have achieved in life. Don't like my comments, don't have to read, just shut up then. And FWIW, Happen to have a CPL, Loser.

Edit ----

Here's a link useful for the next downturn, when the "ATPL and collection of ratings at an airline" -- you SO love to trumpet -- is reduced to squares of TP.

https://www.gofundme.com/?pc=thrive_goo ... gLUf_D_BwE
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by rookiepilot on Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

atphat
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:01 pm

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by atphat »

complexintentions wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:16 am
My favourite is recreational pilots giving advice to pilots intending to make a living at it.

Yes, the tremendous sacrifice it took to get that PPL is totally analogous to slogging it out for years at the lower end of the industry wage spectrum until you hold an ATPL and a collection of ratings at an airline.

Financially totally the same. :roll:

Actually I wouldn't mind if it was just well-intentioned advice, but when it's basically just an excuse to rant and humble-brag a bit about their perilous life-path, *yawn*...
Yawn indeed.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ant_321
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 586
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by ant_321 »

I dont see the big deal about owing a few dollars when you finish training. I wouldn't recommend racking up $100k or anything but a few thousand isn't going to make a big difference in the long run. I could have finished flight school debt free but it would have taken a heck of a lot longer. I left flight school with about 20k in debt. I think the advantages of finishing much earlier have launched my career far ahead of what would have happened if I did strictly pay as you go. Even with the low salary starting out I had my loans paid off in less than 5 years. One of my friends would only fly as he could afford it and it took him about 3 times as long to finish his training. He is now flying a king air 100, I fly a 737 and make nearly 3x his salary. Long story short, sometimes starting flying a couple years or even months earlier can greatly accelerate career progression.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Redneck_pilot86
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1273
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: between 60 and 70

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by Redneck_pilot86 »

I grew up in Ontario and got my CPL through Confed. I had exactly $0 saved up after high school. I got some grants/bursaries, and the rest of my costs were covered by OSAP loans. It took me 3 years to pay off the OSAP loans, in which time I flew approximately 1500 hours for 703 companies in Ontario and the NWT. I am now CP and Base Manager at a 703 company in the Yukon. I'm debt free, own my house outright, and am considering buying the company.
Hard work and perseverance, as well as a little bit of luck. Don't try to keep up with the Jones', don't compare your career to your classmates, but don't miss out on life either. I had absolutely no contacts in the aviation industry when I started out, yet I made it.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"

Rowdy
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5063
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: On Borrowed Wings

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by Rowdy »

Along the lines of rp86.. I had like 1500 to my name graduating high school and my father (airline capt) told me to find my own way if I wanted to get into this terrible racket. I snagged a couple of bursaries and grants and one pitiful 'scholarship fund'. That got me through my PPL. Then I busted my ass off working three jobs and flying every spare moment I could. That got me close. Mom took pity on me and lent me the $1800 for a float rating (which I paid back at the end of my first season) and the rest is history. I think all said and done, it cost me 65k.. in 2002. Then worked a couple float jobs to pay for my MIFR.. Slowly but surely. Its doable!
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by Cat Driver »

Bottom line is the harder you work the luckier you get.

Entitlement will be the end of society as we know it.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

jd832
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:37 am

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by jd832 »

An example of what I did:

I learned to fly when I was a teenager at a local mom and pop flight school. I washed airplanes and all the money I made went to paying for flying lessons. I got a few small loans later for my Instrument and commercial to speed up training and then paid out of pocket again for my multi engine rating. I had my commercial by the age of 19 (ppl to cpl 3 year process). I then enrolled in school to be an A&P in which I paid for with government loans. After graduating I obtained a job as aircraft mechanic. I then used the money from that job to pay cash for my flight instructor qualifications. I then quit and became a instructor full-time which then lead to my first airline job. I now fly a 737NG at the age of 33 with a little over 10,000 hours of flight time. 90% of it is transport category jet time. This all took place between the period of 2002 and now.

This is a long and patient road to be successful in. Success doesn't fall in your lap. Have fun in the processes. Have grit and passion and everything will fall in place. I write this as an example of the road I took without ending up neck deep in dept. I always said if I can't fly them I want to fix them which is why I got my A&P.
---------- ADS -----------
  

superbilly24
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:55 am

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by superbilly24 »

After finishing high school, I went to university for a business degree. I worked part-time while in university and full time every summer. I managed to finish university without debts. I then worked for a year at a decently paying accounting job. That year made me realize I didn't wanna stare at those computer screens for another 30 years. That job helped me save enough money for half of flight training. The other half is being financed by government student loans/grants (not Ontario). I should also add that I am still living with my parents while in school, which is saving me a lot of money.
It can be worth it to work for a year or two and save some money, if you can find a decent paying job. It was worth it for me.
I will hopefully finish flight training in the spring of 2018, at 24 years old, with 20-25k in debts.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1795
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by rookiepilot »

Why should grants exist for flight training in Ontario? What is the rational public policy behind this?

I don't recall grants being offered to me to start my business. I worked for the first 2 years for free, living off my wife's meager income, with bankruptcy a near daily possibility. Took a lot more risk than walking into a secure job.

Yet most think we should tax small businesses more, to give more free stuff to the entitled.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1036
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Those grants are remnants of the last "pilot shortage" of the 1970s. The government has certainly wasted way more money on less worthy causes!
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1795
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by rookiepilot »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:49 pm
Those grants are remnants of the last "pilot shortage" of the 1970s. The government has certainly wasted way more money on less worthy causes!
What business does a government have picking winners and losers with our money? As an overall principle.
---------- ADS -----------
  

CpnCrunch
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3014
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: how do kids afford this racket???

Post by CpnCrunch »

rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:59 pm
What business does a government have picking winners and losers with our money? As an overall principle.
I think of it more along the lines of allowing people that don't have rich parents to get a tertiary education without getting into huge amounts of debt, like you did in Vancouver (I see your Poly has 50% government funding). I guess you probably feel guilty for taking all those taxpayer dollars rather than working in the oilpatch like a good little conservative kid.

The only thing I don't understand about this anti-socialist thinking is why you're not against government-funded primary and secondary education. Can you explain that? Or are people like you against that too?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”