First job options, outside ON or in ON

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

dogga
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:42 pm

First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by dogga »

Hi, as a new member I read a lot these forums but as times change would like to ask some questions and hopefully get some up to date answers.
I am 30 and started PPL. I am hoping to finish CPL by next winter and then decide on which licences to get.
Specifically am wondering as to advantages of getting a Instructor rating and staying in Toronto vs getting MIFR.
Also vs getting Instructor and MIFR. In my situation Id rather stay in Tor as I have a place here and would be hard to live 2 places if I choose to leave Tor. But what are the jobs as Instructor here, is it a good option?
I realize the pay and such but more looking at getting the first one and getting hours fast and being emplyable on something bigger. I understand that Instructor get PIC time which is good, but how are right seat jobs outside Tor. ( if even possible to find ) differ. What is looked upon more, Instructor or something else.
If anyone would like to throw some ideas would be great. Id ask more but post is huge already.
Thanks in advance.
---------- ADS -----------
 
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by AuxBatOn »

You won't be able to find anything outside Tor. Tor is the center of the universe and very little exists outside of Tor.

Seriously, consider opening up your horizons and look beyond Toronto.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Going for the deck at corner
lownslow
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by lownslow »

Based on current trends: get a share in a small airplane, fly the daylights out of it. By the time you have 500 hours (and nearly all PIC) that will probably be what the regionals are looking for.
---------- ADS -----------
 
dogga
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:42 pm

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by dogga »

Thanks for your responses so far, just a question. I would guess getting a share in a plane won't save much money instead of getting Instructors and earning some back, and won't companies like to see any type of working experience? I thought it gives them an idea that you have some working experience and some multi crew experience? (Sort of )
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
7507
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:45 pm

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by 7507 »

dogga wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:07 pm Thanks for your responses so far, just a question. I would guess getting a share in a plane won't save much money instead of getting Instructors and earning some back, and won't companies like to see any type of working experience? I thought it gives them an idea that you have some working experience and some multi crew experience? (Sort of )

I had the same idea, in the next year or two does it matter what time of PIC time you have single, Multi, commercial experience or multi crew or what the previous poster said about flying the crap out of a cessna and logging PIC time.

I mean I get the multi crew experience time but what if I found time on a single or multi cheap and myself and another guy/gal wants to build time and we do long cross countries working together .

I know there's a difference but it's still flying.

Your thoughts
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
7507
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:45 pm

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by 7507 »

lownslow wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:33 am Based on current trends: get a share in a small airplane, fly the daylights out of it. By the time you have 500 hours (and nearly all PIC) that will probably be what the regionals are looking for.
Is this accurate or guessing?
---------- ADS -----------
 
final28
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:47 pm

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by final28 »

Flying cross countries together with another pilot can be lots of fun. Great experience to go to new places and look after your aircraft along the way. It is, however, very different from a two crew SOP operation.
---------- ADS -----------
 
lownslow
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by lownslow »

7507 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:19 pm
lownslow wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:33 am Based on current trends: get a share in a small airplane, fly the daylights out of it. By the time you have 500 hours (and nearly all PIC) that will probably be what the regionals are looking for.
Is this accurate or guessing?
Bit of both, but my jaw hit the floor when a manager at a sizeable airline told a CPL student straight up "don't work, it's faster to just fly."
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
7507
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:45 pm

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by 7507 »

lownslow wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:45 pm
7507 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:19 pm
lownslow wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:33 am Based on current trends: get a share in a small airplane, fly the daylights out of it. By the time you have 500 hours (and nearly all PIC) that will probably be what the regionals are looking for.
Is this accurate or guessing?
Bit of both, but my jaw hit the floor when a manager at a sizeable airline told a CPL student straight up "don't work, it's faster to just fly."

Wow incredible!
---------- ADS -----------
 
BE20 Driver
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 12:58 pm

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by BE20 Driver »

There's a whole world outside of Ontario.

Maybe you'll like it. Maybe you won't. Give it a try though. The way things are moving in this industry, if you pick the wrong job or wrong location, you won't be there long. You might find another location or be pushed into another activity that you find you really enjoy that you otherwise wouldn't have playing it safe and staying close to home.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
7507
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:45 pm

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by 7507 »

final28 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:27 pm Flying cross countries together with another pilot can be lots of fun. Great experience to go to new places and look after your aircraft along the way. It is, however, very different from a two crew SOP operation.

I agree for sure
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
HansDietrich
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:33 am

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by HansDietrich »

So how are you going to get onto "something bigger" if you don't have a MIFR and only an instructor rating? What are you going to fly? A PC12, VFR?
e
Yeah, leave Toronto dude. You won't find many jobs in Toronto with your "experience"
---------- ADS -----------
 
Das ist mir wurst...
dogga
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:42 pm

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by dogga »

Thanks for all reaponses. I do agree on keeping boundaries open and trying different things. I actually would love to do something more interesting than instructing, but I feel my age is pushing it to not have much time to explore but rather just jump in and get hours, maybe Im wrong. Instructing is good for PIC and stay here and not waste time I guess. Well see time will tell. As for flying hours vs working hours although mentioned about that manager dont you think thats a one or max couple people thing, I still feel they would rather hire with work hours person vs just flying person with exact same hours after all said and done? I mean I dont see any advantage on hiring a flying cross countries guy with same hours as experiened working pilot.
Another question would be on education. Any of them companies looking much at college vs university these days?
---------- ADS -----------
 
dogga
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:42 pm

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by dogga »

HansDietrich wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:22 pm So how are you going to get onto "something bigger" if you don't have a MIFR and only an instructor rating? What are you going to fly? A PC12, VFR?
e
Yeah, leave Toronto dude. You won't find many jobs in Toronto with your "experience"
I was actually debating on MIFR alone vs instructor alone vs both MIFR and instructor.
Obviously getting instructor alone would be just that, a rating for a roughly 2 year stepping stone job. Afterwards it will only be good for side job gig which is not bad I guess depending the situation. But spending extra 15000 or w/e money I guess I was hoping to hear that MIFR alone might land a job somewhere near, but its hardly believable i guess. But please feel free to share if anyone actually was able to do that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
confusedalot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 959
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: location, location, is what matters

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by confusedalot »

This is dinosaur information but it may provide to be helpful.

My first job was as a single engine instructor in a single engine operation which proved to be a dead end. However, it led to another job as a single and multi ifr instructor job, plus, they did multi engine charter work, and i also did the charter work, which put me on the map.

After being on the map, I received some attention and ended up in a multi engine ifr operation, which is now labeled as a 703 operation.

That was then, a long time ago when things were tough. Things apparently are not so tough anymore, so going straight into a 703 operation should be a realistic solution from what I read?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.

veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.

:?
dogga
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:42 pm

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by dogga »

confusedalot wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:19 pm This is dinosaur information but it may provide to be helpful.

My first job was as a single engine instructor in a single engine operation which proved to be a dead end. However, it led to another job as a single and multi ifr instructor job, plus, they did multi engine charter work, and i also did the charter work, which put me on the map.

After being on the map, I received some attention and ended up in a multi engine ifr operation, which is now labeled as a 703 operation.

That was then, a long time ago when things were tough. Things apparently are not so tough anymore, so going straight into a 703 operation should be a realistic solution from what I read?
This is great information. I guess the best thing is if people can share this exact type of experience but hopefully more up to date. But even with the dinosaur information, I thought to ask, how fast did you find that first job even in those tough times, and how fast did the second one come around? Appreciate the help.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Brantford Beech Boy
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:34 am
Location: Brantford? Not so much...

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by Brantford Beech Boy »

There are plenty of rotational 703/704 gigs out there that will let you live in Toronto. Borek is the one that immediately springs to mind and as the "shortage" deepens, more companies will start to offer rotations.
As others have alluded to, these companies are down to the short and curlies for hiring. A MIFR/CPL and heartbeat are (in some cases) the current requirements for an F/O.

Also, strictly from personal observation as a company training capt and Check Pilot, instructors (at least all the ones I met) were the most difficult candidates to train.
It is a process to de-program the instructing and program the multi-crew. They also typically exhibit a high degree of theoretical knowledge but a marked decline in the physical application of said knowledge.
All the hours you spend in the right seat watching a newbie pound out circuits does nothing for your own experience, except maybe honing some self preservation skills. Sure as hell does not help your IFR skills.

I wouldn't bother with the instructor rating, unless you are super passionate about teaching and are planning to make a career of instructing.
Get the MIFR or maybe a float rating

(my $0.02)
BBB
---------- ADS -----------
 
"Almost anywhere, almost anytime...worldwide(ish)"
dogga
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:42 pm

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by dogga »

Brantford Beech Boy wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:20 am There are plenty of rotational 703/704 gigs out there that will let you live in Toronto. Borek is the one that immediately springs to mind and as the "shortage" deepens, more companies will start to offer rotations.
As others have alluded to, these companies are down to the short and curlies for hiring. A MIFR/CPL and heartbeat are (in some cases) the current requirements for an F/O.

Also, strictly from personal observation as a company training capt and Check Pilot, instructors (at least all the ones I met) were the most difficult candidates to train.
It is a process to de-program the instructing and program the multi-crew. They also typically exhibit a high degree of theoretical knowledge but a marked decline in the physical application of said knowledge.
All the hours you spend in the right seat watching a newbie pound out circuits does nothing for your own experience, except maybe honing some self preservation skills. Sure as hell does not help your IFR skills.

I wouldn't bother with the instructor rating, unless you are super passionate about teaching and are planning to make a career of instructing.
Get the MIFR or maybe a float rating

(my $0.02)
BBB
This is some valuable information, thank you. I absolutely agree with instructors not getting as much of different experience as needed or wanted, but what do i know, im still green. I would really love to start of with MIFR and get a different job that is challenging and lets me get different experience from the start. I guess I will wait and see how things move within next year and hopefully if the industry is still moving i can pursue my MIFR and just go for a job available. Reassuring information i must say.
lownslow wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:33 am Based on current trends: get a share in a small airplane, fly the daylights out of it. By the time you have 500 hours (and nearly all PIC) that will probably be what the regionals are looking for.
Based on information above, this option start to make sense as well, logging hours and getting MIFR. Although how much will it cost you to fly 230 hours Im afraid to ask. And after that praying might not help either im guessing.

Another question I have is what are the websites that I can keep an eye on for different job opportunities to see how the industry is moving, or other ways to find that info out.
Please share if you can.
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by goingnowherefast »

Brantford Beech Boy wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:20 am There are plenty of rotational 703/704 gigs out there that will let you live in Toronto. Borek is the one that immediately springs to mind and as the "shortage" deepens, more companies will start to offer rotations.
As others have alluded to, these companies are down to the short and curlies for hiring. A MIFR/CPL and heartbeat are (in some cases) the current requirements for an F/O.

Also, strictly from personal observation as a company training capt and Check Pilot, instructors (at least all the ones I met) were the most difficult candidates to train.
It is a process to de-program the instructing and program the multi-crew. They also typically exhibit a high degree of theoretical knowledge but a marked decline in the physical application of said knowledge.
All the hours you spend in the right seat watching a newbie pound out circuits does nothing for your own experience, except maybe honing some self preservation skills. Sure as hell does not help your IFR skills.

I wouldn't bother with the instructor rating, unless you are super passionate about teaching and are planning to make a career of instructing.
Get the MIFR or maybe a float rating

(my $0.02)
BBB
I agree with about 95% of this. Overall very good advice. The 5% I disagree with is in regards to instructors. Yes, the first 50 hours on type is more difficult for the mentioned reasons. However, by 300-500 hours on type the 700 hour instructor has generally learned how to apply the theoretical knowledge and has surpassed a 250hr pilot. In the long run (a year or more) both paths have the potential to produce an equally capable pilot. At that point, it is more up to the individual's attitude and abilities. Assuming both pilots have sufficient experience on type, ex-instructors also typically move into a training role more easily as they have a background in training. They have more patience with trainees, a better ability to explain the hows and whys and accommodate different learning styles.

If you aren't passionate about teaching, do what BBB said, do not do instruct. You will hate your life and be a disservice to your students.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
confusedalot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 959
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: location, location, is what matters

Re: First job options, outside ON or in ON

Post by confusedalot »

dogga wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:24 pm
confusedalot wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:19 pm This is dinosaur information but it may provide to be helpful.

My first job was as a single engine instructor in a single engine operation which proved to be a dead end. However, it led to another job as a single and multi ifr instructor job, plus, they did multi engine charter work, and i also did the charter work, which put me on the map.

After being on the map, I received some attention and ended up in a multi engine ifr operation, which is now labeled as a 703 operation.

That was then, a long time ago when things were tough. Things apparently are not so tough anymore, so going straight into a 703 operation should be a realistic solution from what I read?
This is great information. I guess the best thing is if people can share this exact type of experience but hopefully more up to date. But even with the dinosaur information, I thought to ask, how fast did you find that first job even in those tough times, and how fast did the second one come around? Appreciate the help.
I did one of those aviation college things but, since the industry was dead as a doornail, it was either getting a float rating or an instructor rating, both of which were not provided from the college. Went to work outside of aviation, got the instructor rating (which was not so long), and it took six months from finishing college, through the instructor rating, to get the first job.

Second job took 3 months to get. Third job took a year. Next job took 4 months, then spent 5 years in multi piston IFR charters (industry still in the dumps)

Dash 8 left seat at 28 years old as a direct entry. then first officer widebody after 4 years, then captain widebody after 4 years. Bear in mind though that there was alot of instability in the industry and bankruptcies were a commonplace occurence, so I went back to narrowbody, then an office job, then to corporate, then to narrowbody again, etc.........

Once again, dinosaur information, and as I hear, things are booming right now, so you won't go through the same thing. But, as I can see, right seat widebody or narrowbody won't happen oevernight, but it will take alot less time. Maybe 5 years?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.

veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.

:?
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”