Legal Marijuana

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Sharklasers
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Legal Marijuana

#1 Post by Sharklasers » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:18 pm

With legal Marijuana just around the corner now has anyone's company come up with how they are going to approach this?
Has there been any guidance from Transport Canada?

:weedman: :smt033 :smt109 :smokebig:
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#2 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:19 pm

The airlines and charter companies encourage you to use Marijuana before flying as it calms any anxiety you may have about the flight you are about to start and it really slows down your chances of rushing into a dumb decision.

Caution, make sure you eat it rather than smoke it so you don't smell of smoke which may irritate some passengers.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#3 Post by lhalliday » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:08 pm

From the Aviation Safety Letter 3/2017: "TC will continue to have a zero tolerance policy for cannabis, regardless of whether it becomes legal, as cannabis use is not consistent with being medically fit to fly".

...laura
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#4 Post by Meatservo » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:31 pm

I don't think anything has changed. Your company may or may not care if you get caught shoplifting on your time off, or smashing other people's lawn ornaments: as long as you aren't in jail when it's time to show up at work, and you are still allowed to cross international borders, whatever petty crimes you choose to commit in your spare time are pretty much your business. Now, one thing that was a petty crime before, owning some weed, will soon not be. Now all the people who own some weed can breathe a sigh of relief. The same way I would if stealing garden gnomes suddenly became legal. This doesn't seem to me to have much to do with work.

Here's why: I have a hard time believing that there are very many adults out there who really, really want to smoke some dope but have avoided it all this time "because it's illegal". I have a hard time believing that a pilot who has thus far avoided showing up for work impaired will suddenly do so because it's no longer a petty crime to own some weed.

Here's another way of looking at it. If you showed up for work tomorrow high on drugs, and got caught trying to fly a plane, the authorities, and your employer, would be pissed off about a few things. Your employer will be pissed off that you showed up stoned, and will likely fire you. The government will be pissed off that you tried to operate a plane in an impaired state, and they would accuse you of that crime and you'd probably go to jail and lose your license. Also, if you happened to have some weed in your pocket at the time, I guess they would add "possession" to the list of charges.

Now let's consider what would happen if you showed up for work next year high on drugs, and got caught trying to fly a plane. The authorities, and your employer, would be pissed off about a few things. Your employer would be pissed off that you showed up stoned, and would likely fire you. The government would be pissed off that you tried to operate a plane in an impaired state, and they would accuse you of that crime and you'd probably go to jail and lose your license. Also, if you happened to have some weed in your pocket at the time, I guess they would NOT add "possession" to the list of charges.

So really, the question shouldn't be "how are they going to change the rules". The question should be "how are they going to define what does and does not constitute an impaired state for marijuana in a way that is comparable to how we presently define an impaired state for alcohol". So that the present rules can continue to apply.

Now personally I happen to think that continuous dope-smoking does something to your brain and probably causes lung cancer. Others disagree with me. But if we stick to what we do know, we can agree that the rules are already there, as long as we agree on what "impaired" means. And I think that it means no alcohol or THC in the blood, period. However you go about making that happen, the rules are already there.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#5 Post by phillyfan » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:55 pm

The first time I am exposed to second hand smoke I will sue the growers, sellers and the user. That goes for anybody who stabs me with a needle filled with heroin or meth. If I am exposed to a medically disqualifying drug, I will certainly take action.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#6 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:19 pm

My first post is obviously meant to be so absurd it is unlikely anyone would take it seriously.

However the use of drugs and flying is not anything to be taken lightly.

Marijuana is a drug and can if used enough cause long term brain damage whether it is legal or not does not change that fact.

Alcohol also is a drug and it is a legal drug, it also can be very addictive and can cause several very serious medical problems not to mention wreck your life.

Addiction is insidious and most people will deny they are addicted to a drug.

Earlier in my flying career my drinking became an addiction and I was fortunate to have recognised I was addicted, I thought about it and came to the conclusion I had to quit drinking completely and forever or my career and possible my life would be short.

Quitting was difficult beyond belief because the drug is so powerful one just can't seem to quit.

I did some research on how to kick the addiction and ended up going to Schick Shadel Hospital in Washington State.

The treatment was brutal and cost a lot of money ( Over eleven thousand U.S.dollars when I went there in 1985. )

However after completing the treatment and two follow ups it worked and I have never had a drop of alcohol since I left the hospital.

So for me it was the best thing I ever did as it allowed me to finish my flying career and I am still healthy and hope to live to at least a hundred, unless I get shot out of the saddle by some jealous husband. :mrgreen:
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#7 Post by rookiepilot » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:47 pm

phillyfan wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:55 pm
The first time I am exposed to second hand smoke I will sue the growers, sellers and the user. That goes for anybody who stabs me with a needle filled with heroin or meth. If I am exposed to a medically disqualifying drug, I will certainly take action.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good luck with that. They will laugh you out of court, just like a suit for second hand smoke.

Not trying to razz you. Just look at the direction Canada, the world, is going. Pot. Optoid epidemic. Ect.

Face it, your career rights as a pilot, my teenage daughter's rights not to have pot agressively marketed to her, and everyone else's for clean hair, have been superseded by the pothead's.

How are the cops, BTW, going to prove roadside THC impairment, for drivers? How do you measure impairment? You know who's going to get sued. The first airline who fires someone for using, (off the job) when they can't prove impairment on the job. Human rights commission, anyone?

You'll be sharing the cockpit with potheads. And perfectly legal. What are the long term effects on users? NO cognitive impairment? Who knows?

Big difference? While illegal, being a user at any time would be a firing offense. No users with unknown cognitive impairment driving planes or trucks. Now? That will be discriminatory. Human rights commission up the employers ass.

I don't like it. But remember this is a majority of folks vision for Canada. Legalized pot is our fair haired PM's great vision and accomplishment. Awesome.

You all voted for this, my friends. Fun world.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#8 Post by Meatservo » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:06 pm

Here's the thing though. The only thing that has changed is that one does not have to hide one's stash. The rest is the same. Smoking in general, not just dope but cigarettes, rope, rolled-up newspaper, whatever, is pretty-near illegal anyway- you can't smoke in public areas, even outside, nor in restaurants, bars, etc. Cigarette companies can't advertize, and they are cracking down on their sponsorship of sports events so even that marketing gimmick is going to slam shut on them soon. Smoking dope is a type of smoking, so the "agressive marketing" isn't going to happen. So second-hand smoke, well, I haven't been bothered by it in years. Like I said before, no pot-head ever let "the law" stop him from having dope, therefore I don't think there are going to be very many "new" pot-smokers. Chances are, if you are worried about sharing a cockpit with a druggie, you already are.

Hey, I think it's a disgusting habit personally. If I had a fellow pilot who I knew was a doper, I wouldn't be above discriminating against him or her in the workplace and making his or her life as miserable as possible by committing as many microagressions and exclusionary behaviour towards them as I could get away with. But at the same time, I am fine with making it legal to own a stash. Collect the taxes. It'll pay for the detection gear and the cancer treatments (partially)
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#9 Post by confusedalot » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:07 pm

Sad to see that there is no middle road. You either vote in harper who wants to put everyone in jail who does not share his victorian puritanical horse whipping image of the world, or you get junior who does not have a clue. Which is better? I dunno.

No need for pot personally, but having said that, someone please tell me what the difference between pot and alcohol is? Full disclosure, I like to have my scotch from time to time, well before 12 hours and check in time.........

What is the difference?
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#10 Post by confusedalot » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:10 pm

Meatservo wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:06 pm
Here's the thing though. The only thing that has changed is that one does not have to hide one's stash. The rest is the same. Smoking in general, not just dope but cigarettes, rope, rolled-up newspaper, whatever, is pretty-near illegal anyway- you can't smoke in public areas, even outside, nor in restaurants, bars, etc. Cigarette companies can't advertize, and they are cracking down on their sponsorship of sports events so even that marketing gimmick is going to slam shut on them soon. Smoking dope is a type of smoking, so the "agressive marketing" isn't going to happen. So second-hand smoke, well, I haven't been bothered by it in years. Like I said before, no pot-head ever let "the law" stop him from having dope, therefore I don't think there are going to be very many "new" pot-smokers. Chances are, if you are worried about sharing a cockpit with a druggie, you already are.

Hey, I think it's a disgusting habit personally. If I had a fellow pilot who I knew was a doper, I wouldn't be above discriminating against him or her in the workplace and making his or her life as miserable as possible by committing as many microagressions and exclusionary behaviour towards them as I could get away with. But at the same time, I am fine with making it legal to own a stash. Collect the taxes. It'll pay for the detection gear and the cancer treatments (partially)
So....since I am a tobacco cigarette smoker, you condone the abuse of my person, even if I don't smoke in peoples faces? Ah yes, the good and great of canada preaching to the inferior masses............
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#11 Post by montado » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:18 pm

Unofficial word where I work is that this drug can be detected in your system with a drug test for about a month from a single use (as in smoke one joint). It remains longer in your system if you are a heavy user, I’m not exactly sure how to quantify this. You are ok to do what you like to do on your time off, but when you report fit for duty you must not show positive if you were to be tested.

So if you can get that whole month off work, for your first day off anyways you can give it a whirl if you like. I think results of blood vs urine test are different. I am sure all the information on this is available via google as far as what to expect depending on usage.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#12 Post by rookiepilot » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:24 pm

montado wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:18 pm
Unofficial word where I work is that this drug can be detected in your system with a drug test for about a month from a single use (as in smoke one joint). It remains longer in your system if you are a heavy user, I’m not exactly sure how to quantify this. You are ok to do what you like to do on your time off, but when you report fit for duty you must not show positive if you were to be tested.

So if you can get that whole month off work, for your first day off anyways you can give it a whirl if you like. I think results of blood vs urine test are different. I am sure all the information on this is available via google as far as what to expect depending on usage.

Let me take the other side just for fun. Say I'm a pilot, after this is legal, I get busted on a drug test, reveals I used - smoked -- I dunno even the terms -- 2 weeks ago. I get fired by the company. I immediately sue the company, on the basis they can't prove impairment, so its discriminatory. It's a firing without cause. I get the human rights commission on my side, maybe even the union.

This is the can of worms this has opened. This will happen.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#13 Post by atphat » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:31 pm

.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#14 Post by montado » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:33 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:24 pm
montado wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:18 pm
Unofficial word where I work is that this drug can be detected in your system with a drug test for about a month from a single use (as in smoke one joint). It remains longer in your system if you are a heavy user, I’m not exactly sure how to quantify this. You are ok to do what you like to do on your time off, but when you report fit for duty you must not show positive if you were to be tested.

So if you can get that whole month off work, for your first day off anyways you can give it a whirl if you like. I think results of blood vs urine test are different. I am sure all the information on this is available via google as far as what to expect depending on usage.

Let me take the other side just for fun. Say I'm a pilot, after this is legal, I get busted on a drug test, reveals I used - smoked -- I dunno even the terms -- 2 weeks ago. I get fired by the company. I immediately sue the company, on the basis they can't prove impairment, so its discriminatory. It's a firing without cause. I get the human rights commission on my side, maybe even the union.

This is the can of worms this has opened. This will happen.
The test proves impairment. Unless you argue you never used and the test was wrong. If you admit you used even if it was a week ago then you are “impaired”. Since we can’t measure imparement the way we do alcohol, you are basically considered impaired unless you pass a test. I don’t think a union will back up anyone found testing positive. Nor will any colleagues support you. I think this will be taken seriously and the only way out is if you test positive somehow but really never used and somehow we have an element of error in the testing.

Edit: it’s not discriminatory. Is it discrimination to pull a pilot off line and fire them for being under the influence of alcohol? Weed will be no different. Sure you may not feel under influence a week after smoking a joint however if it’s in your system then you are considered under the influence. Seems black and white to me.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#15 Post by rookiepilot » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:41 pm

Montado,

" You are considered impaired unless a test is passed". Presumed guilt for a legal product.

I would bet a there will be a court challenge in the future, and the way the winds are shifting, it will win at some point. The concept of impairment will get challenged, because, obnoxious as it sounds, (taking the other side ) "my right to use is greater than the rights of others"

Maybe not pilots, first. But truck drivers. Heavy machinery operators. Because, unlike someone whose totally drunk (but effects are gone in 24 hours at most, I would guess -- been a long long time ) -- how does one measure drug impairment after 2 weeks?

It's a can of worms. What's next too? Crack? Harder drugs? Gotta wonder.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#16 Post by confusedalot » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:48 pm

So pot stays in your system for a month, and therefore you are impaired for an entire month.

This is no joke, I really learned something. This is no joke either, a minor but sizeable and significant mount of the population are impaired while on the job..............that makes for an awful lot of impaired people..............

I don't use the stuff, but I am surprised at all of this.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#17 Post by North Shore » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:28 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:48 pm
So pot stays in your system for a month, and therefore you are impaired for an entire month.
At what concentration does it stay detectable? Sure, you're impaired 15 minutes after consuming, but 15 days later? It might be detectable that you used within the last number of days, but there is going to have to be some research done on impairment levels, and metabolization times before we start hanging people out to dry for having smoked/eaten 30 days ago...
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#18 Post by geneticistx » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:21 pm

very strange/coincidental, i was just in having my medical the other day and me and the ME were chatting about this. The "zero tolerance" for cannabis is being discussed for all pilots, apparently. There are no "ramp checks", per se, but as was mentioned above and positive on a test could spell trouble. The chemicals found in pot are fat soluable and can be detected 4-6 weeks post consumption. Legal or not to everyday people, the way it's looking is that TC will be having a different view for pilots.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#19 Post by Meatservo » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:56 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:10 pm
So....since I am a tobacco cigarette smoker, you condone the abuse of my person, even if I don't smoke in peoples faces? Ah yes, the good and great of canada preaching to the inferior masses............
You mis-read my comment. Go back and give it another read.
rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:24 pm
Let me take the other side just for fun. Say I'm a pilot, after this is legal, I get busted on a drug test, reveals I used - smoked -- I dunno even the terms -- 2 weeks ago. I get fired by the company. I immediately sue the company, on the basis they can't prove impairment, so its discriminatory. It's a firing without cause. I get the human rights commission on my side, maybe even the union.
Oh, boo hoo. God forbid you should have to make a sacrifice for your career. I understand you were playing devil's advocate so don't take this personally. You're probably right about human rights and all that, but I'm perfectly fine with people having to decide which they are more passionate about: flying or dope-smoking. I'm fine with the idea that you can't have both. This idea that every human being has the unalienable right to enjoy whatever he wants no matter the circumstances, is a pretty new thing: and I'm too old to have much patience for it.

If someone told me they could detect beer six weeks after you had a few, and there was zero tolerance for beer, I guess I would have to give that a long hard think. Maybe change careers. But luckily we have centuries of experience with that particular intoxicant, its blood quantities are easily measurable, its intoxicating effects are short-lasting and predictable. None of this is (yet) true with respect to dope. People can test positive long after they are no longer intoxicated. This isn't fair perhaps, but it's a characteristic and consequence of the drug you like to use.

An analogy that just popped into my head: say I like to hit myself in the head with a ball-peen hammer. I think it feels great. I do it on my time off. I don't do it at work.I insist that it's harmless and I continue, so far, to show up for work and don't appear to be suffering any performance degradation. People start to notice that I never shut my mouth any more, my eyelids are droopy and I say "ummm" and "man" a lot, but hey, I continue to pass the cursory multiple-choice quizzes that pass for "training" these days. I myself insist that I'm fine, and you don't have the right to tell me to cut it out with the hammer. It's not illegal. In fact, you can buy hammers almost anywhere. I'm deeply involved in "the lifestyle" when it comes to hammers. You can't stop me from flying aeroplanes.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#20 Post by montado » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:28 am

It’s hammer time!

Yes it sounds very social justice warrior like to fight for your right to smoke dope and be a pilot. Because your right to leagal recreational activities should come before the safety of the passengers we transport.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#21 Post by cncpc » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:58 am

lhalliday wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:08 pm
From the Aviation Safety Letter 3/2017: "TC will continue to have a zero tolerance policy for cannabis, regardless of whether it becomes legal, as cannabis use is not consistent with being medically fit to fly".

...laura
That won't stand up in court. Cannabis intoxication is certainly not consistent with being medically fit to fly, but cannabis use long before a flight, say four days, is not inconsistent with medical fitness.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#22 Post by cncpc » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:03 am

montado wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:33 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:24 pm
montado wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:18 pm
Unofficial word where I work is that this drug can be detected in your system with a drug test for about a month from a single use (as in smoke one joint). It remains longer in your system if you are a heavy user, I’m not exactly sure how to quantify this. You are ok to do what you like to do on your time off, but when you report fit for duty you must not show positive if you were to be tested.

So if you can get that whole month off work, for your first day off anyways you can give it a whirl if you like. I think results of blood vs urine test are different. I am sure all the information on this is available via google as far as what to expect depending on usage.

Let me take the other side just for fun. Say I'm a pilot, after this is legal, I get busted on a drug test, reveals I used - smoked -- I dunno even the terms -- 2 weeks ago. I get fired by the company. I immediately sue the company, on the basis they can't prove impairment, so its discriminatory. It's a firing without cause. I get the human rights commission on my side, maybe even the union.

This is the can of worms this has opened. This will happen.
The test proves impairment. Unless you argue you never used and the test was wrong. If you admit you used even if it was a week ago then you are “impaired”. Since we can’t measure imparement the way we do alcohol, you are basically considered impaired unless you pass a test. I don’t think a union will back up anyone found testing positive. Nor will any colleagues support you. I think this will be taken seriously and the only way out is if you test positive somehow but really never used and somehow we have an element of error in the testing.

Edit: it’s not discriminatory. Is it discrimination to pull a pilot off line and fire them for being under the influence of alcohol? Weed will be no different. Sure you may not feel under influence a week after smoking a joint however if it’s in your system then you are considered under the influence. Seems black and white to me.
The test does not prove impairment. It proves consumption. That could be a month or more before the test.

If pot is legal, unions certainly will back up people fired just for testing positive. I'd hate to think what else seems black and white to you.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#23 Post by cncpc » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:04 am

montado wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:28 am
It’s hammer time!

Yes it sounds very social justice warrior like to fight for your right to smoke dope and be a pilot. Because your right to leagal recreational activities should come before the safety of the passengers we transport.
Okay, we get it, you're a saint.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#24 Post by valleyboy » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:55 am

The bottom line is that companies will set their drug and alcohol policies. Most have adopted 12 hr alcohol bottle to throttle and are able to set zero tolerance they want with weed. I can see the lobby to legalize compulsory drug testing. There will be push back from the bleeding hearts but in my mind sometimes safety trumps the trivial end of man rights.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

#25 Post by rookiepilot » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:10 am

valleyboy wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:55 am
There will be push back from the bleeding hearts but in my mind sometimes safety trumps the trivial end of man rights.
---- Of course it does. Thats a logical, sane world. We no longer have that world. Look around.

But I predict a sh--storm because the looney left, with their my rights and safe places world, will challenge what companies can and can't do. And here's the bizarre thing: YOU, my taxpayer friend, through a human rights challenge, will fund the challenge to your own safety and mine. That's how crazy things are. It'll get messy.
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