Legal Marijuana

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Cat Driver
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by Cat Driver »

Maybe he waa checking to see if you were awake?
You really think that is a possibility?

Or are you not capable of logical thought?
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by rookiepilot »

Cat Driver wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:35 pm
Maybe he waa checking to see if you were awake?
You really think that is a possibility?

Or are you not capable of logical thought?
Perhaps the product has long standing influence on brain function after all. :mrgreen:
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by North Shore »

BAck to arguing issues, rather than personal animosities, please, guys...
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by confusedalot »

Good advice but what's the use. Seems to me that you have two camps that will NEVER come to looking at basic facts. Looks like the crusades attitude is alive and well.

I don't have a preference either way...as long as the other guy does not show up drunk or stoned for work...
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Last edited by confusedalot on Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by av8ts »

Seems like a lot of people on here assume by making marijuana legal pilots will all of a sudden start showing up for work stoned. It’s easy to get now, I would guess that no more go to work stoned than do drunk ( ie: it’s very rare). It’s no different than drinking. The vast majority are just not going to do it before work
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by rookiepilot »

I am a supporter of marijuana for medical purposes. There is enough evidence it helps some with serious conditions.

Furthermore I support safety over individual "rights" -- period.

Accept any position with a high level of public trust and safety component, be prepared give up some freedoms for that privilege, like drug testing, that drug being legal or not. Many examples exist, besides aviation.

My concern is pot being legal for any reason, will water down critical protections essential for public safety. Because that is the way society is moving, from we to "it's all about my rights".

Perhaps it all works out. I hope people in govt and industry are thinking it through. We had a nasty accident here on the 400. Momentary Inattention by a trucker. Multiple people died, burned alive likely. Now let's throw legal pot in there. Cool.

Sadly the growing course of leftist fanatics everywhere don't discuss the logic, they always attack others on any stance that goes against the "My Rights!" Hysteria, regardless of the issue being discussed, and attempt to shut down debate.

Impossible to have a rational conversation.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by confusedalot »

he he he he.....

Like I said, two ideological camps, just like the crusades. By that point of view, alcohol should also be banned (for the public interest of course). Hey, it's been tried with disastrous effect.

Better to have an airplane driver who does not kick back and relax for awhile with a scotch with his friends, or, a machine that religiously follows the no drinking or burn in hell rule, that has zero contact with the real world and no social life?

I know which psychological profile I would choose. As long as he is not high on the job of course..

Once again, two diametrically opposed ultra conservative puritanicals and liberal factions are duking it out.

Hey, I don't use marijuana, don't even have any particular desire to try it, but c'mon, a weed that grows in the ground becomes some sort of satan's tool?
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by Cat Driver »

Better to have an airplane driver who does not kick back and relax for awhile with a scotch with his friends, or, a machine that religiously follows the no drinking or burn in hell rule, that has zero contact with the real world and no social life?
Well speaking strictly from my own personal experience having known both worlds, the social drinking world and the world where I do not drink my social life as improved immensely since I quit drinking and I still associate with lots of friends when they are drinking in pubs etc.

Also my contact with the real world is never clouded by being impaired by a drug.

P.S. :::

I do not insinuate that others should not drink for the simple reason I am a believer in free choice.


Just thought I should make the above comment for the record. :)
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Last edited by Cat Driver on Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by rookiepilot »

With alcohol it is well known how long impairment lasts. Can anyone definitively say the same about weed?

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If issues involving public safety are preserved, then BTW I don't particularly care one way or the other what people do. I just think it'll be messy in that regard.

Ps ....Yet another reason not to be a landlord. Under the law at least here, a landlord is not allowed to discriminate, nor even have knowledge of, if a tenant is using the rental as a grow op. It's legal, or will be. Property damage? Tough.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by confusedalot »

Going out on a limb here, but I suspect that if someone is going to damage your rental property, as in perhaps unsanitary conditions with mold creating items, like plants, you would have every right to evict them. If it's a matter of three small pots of marijuana, suspect that would not be possible.

Once again, I don't use the stuff nor do I have any desire to do so, but I am still hung up on exactly how severe the issue actually is. Maybe I am to permissive?
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by Meatservo »

A lot of people say that "alcohol is a drug that is even more dangerous than cannabis". I object to this as a rhetorical point because it depends on what you mean by "dangerous".

For one thing, saying "weed" is more like saying "beer". If we're going to compare drugs, let's compare "alcohol" with "THC".

It's certainly more poisonous, as in you can easily drink enough that it will kill you, which might not be the case for THC.

It's possibly more habit-forming- however that is also contextual. No-one starts using THC because it tastes great with a steak or because it's refreshing served cold on a hot day. Marijuana smokers have less in common with a person having a glass of wine with dinner or having a glass of scotch or stout in their favourite chair and more in common with a teenager drinking beer out of a funnel. For a lot of people, alcohol dependence can creep up on them gradually as a result of indulging in the social aspect of drinking. There is only one reason anyone ever consumes THC... for its ability to @#$! you up.

Alcohol has been brewed and consumed by humans for so long that I suspect our tolerance of it is a borderline evolutionary phenomenon. It's well known that brewing alcoholic beverages has been an effective way of guarding against waterborne disease. We are very aware of the effects of alcohol on our bodies. We know very well how quickly it leaves our bodies. We know very well the effect it has on our bodies. We know that you have to drink a great deal of it, over and over, for a very long time, in order for it to permanently damage our brains.

We don't know any of those things about THC.

I agree that alcohol is a destructive force in many peoples' lives. I agree that THC is enjoyed by many people. But "dangerous"? We don't know much about it. Some people are addicted to it. I think it causes an effect on the brains of users that is more insidious and harder to define, and possibly more permanent, than the damage caused by alcohol abuse.

I stand by my opinion that more research is needed before we accept all the hype, and dismiss all the misgivings about this drug.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by cncpc »

Meatservo wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:04 pm A lot of people say that "alcohol is a drug that is even more dangerous than cannabis". I object to this as a rhetorical point because it depends on what you mean by "dangerous".

For one thing, saying "weed" is more like saying "beer". If we're going to compare drugs, let's compare "alcohol" with "THC".

It's certainly more poisonous, as in you can easily drink enough that it will kill you, which might not be the case for THC.

It's possibly more habit-forming- however that is also contextual. No-one starts using THC because it tastes great with a steak or because it's refreshing served cold on a hot day. Marijuana smokers have less in common with a person having a glass of wine with dinner or having a glass of scotch or stout in their favourite chair and more in common with a teenager drinking beer out of a funnel. For a lot of people, alcohol dependence can creep up on them gradually as a result of indulging in the social aspect of drinking. There is only one reason anyone ever consumes THC... for its ability to @#$! you up.

Alcohol has been brewed and consumed by humans for so long that I suspect our tolerance of it is a borderline evolutionary phenomenon. It's well known that brewing alcoholic beverages has been an effective way of guarding against waterborne disease. We are very aware of the effects of alcohol on our bodies. We know very well how quickly it leaves our bodies. We know very well the effect it has on our bodies. We know that you have to drink a great deal of it, over and over, for a very long time, in order for it to permanently damage our brains.

We don't know any of those things about THC.

I agree that alcohol is a destructive force in many peoples' lives. I agree that THC is enjoyed by many people. But "dangerous"? We don't know much about it. Some people are addicted to it. I think it causes an effect on the brains of users that is more insidious and harder to define, and possibly more permanent, than the damage caused by alcohol abuse.

I stand by my opinion that more research is needed before we accept all the hype, and dismiss all the misgivings about this drug.
That is quite a reasonable perspective.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by skybluetrek »

What should be addressed is the real elephant in the room. The incompatibility between this profession and any drug is pretty obvious. What the real debate is about however: Is smoking pot moral? Is recreational marijuana morally comparable to alcohol?

I don't think we're particulary worried about the substance called THC, there are plenty of other, stronger and legal, substances out there and we're not debating about it. The THC itself should not be the issue when there seems to be a clear consensus around the following: (1) Cannabis is not as addictive as alcohol, tobacco or certainly “harder” drugs like cocaine and heroin; (2) Marijuana is much less physically debilitating than “harder” drugs, as well as many legally-prescribed synthetic painkillers; (3) Deaths from a marijuana overdose are extraordinarily rare; and (4) There’s a significant and growing amount of evidence that cannabis helps relieve symptoms of many serious medical conditions — including cancer, glaucoma, and AIDS — and can be a better alternative to narcotic painkillers.

The issue here is our f#$& up concept of morality and dignity. Drinking 1 to 3 glasses of wine or 3 beers = Another normal guy; Gets a bit drunk here and there = Another normal guy; Casual marijuana use = Stoner, Abuse, Adict, hippie, etc.
I used alcochol but here's a random top 10 addictions list: http://guardianlv.com/2014/07/sexual-ad ... -the-year/
How many of them could influence the mental and phisical health of a pilot? How many of them result in a moral judment of the person? How come we accept a wrong concept of moderation and abuse for other substances or habits?

Using marijuana recreationally probably isn't a beneficial behavior for most people, but it's not inherently different than other substances, such as alcohol. Our focus shouldn’t be on the private morality of individuals who choose to smoke pot.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by cncpc »

skybluetrek wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:07 am What should be addressed is the real elephant in the room. The incompatibility between this profession and any drug is pretty obvious. What the real debate is about however: Is smoking pot moral? Is recreational marijuana morally comparable to alcohol?

I don't think we're particulary worried about the substance called THC, there are plenty of other, stronger and legal, substances out there and we're not debating about it. The THC itself should not be the issue when there seems to be a clear consensus around the following: (1) Cannabis is not as addictive as alcohol, tobacco or certainly “harder” drugs like cocaine and heroin; (2) Marijuana is much less physically debilitating than “harder” drugs, as well as many legally-prescribed synthetic painkillers; (3) Deaths from a marijuana overdose are extraordinarily rare; and (4) There’s a significant and growing amount of evidence that cannabis helps relieve symptoms of many serious medical conditions — including cancer, glaucoma, and AIDS — and can be a better alternative to narcotic painkillers.

The issue here is our f#$& up concept of morality and dignity. Drinking 1 to 3 glasses of wine or 3 beers = Another normal guy; Gets a bit drunk here and there = Another normal guy; Casual marijuana use = Stoner, Abuse, Adict, hippie, etc.
I used alcochol but here's a random top 10 addictions list: http://guardianlv.com/2014/07/sexual-ad ... -the-year/
How many of them could influence the mental and phisical health of a pilot? How many of them result in a moral judment of the person? How come we accept a wrong concept of moderation and abuse for other substances or habits?

Using marijuana recreationally probably isn't a beneficial behavior for most people, but it's not inherently different than other substances, such as alcohol. Our focus shouldn’t be on the private morality of individuals who choose to smoke pot.
Again, well said.

My choice about pot is to never smoke it in any professional flying phase of my life. Or private flying. I have smoked pot when my medical had lapsed and I had no imminent intention of renewing it. When I did have that intention, I stopped smoking at least a couple of months before flying again, and never smoked in any flying period.

That is a choice. It is not mandated by aviation law. All that is mandated by aviation law is that a pilot not be under the influence of alcohol or a drug when flying, and the stipulation that when using a drug that if declared to a CAME would result in medical suspension, the pilot should not thereafter exercise the privilege of his or her license until that issue is resolved. The fact that possession of pot, necessary to smoke it, is against the law also influences my decision. My decision will not change when it is legal.

Although there seems to be a standard about when one is no longer under the influence of alcohol, it's not really that clear with pot. Sure, 24 hours seems reasonable, but it's not so clear when you start to consider chronic and excessive use. So in some sense I agree with the Reefer Madness crowd here as to what should happen, just not the promoting of the same old lies about pot. As an example, I'm sure Just . is a sound man and a very good pilot, but he doesn't know his ass from page 4 as far as pot goes, but he blathers on as if he did. But that's Just ..
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by rookiepilot »

skybluetrek wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:07 am What should be addressed is the real elephant in the room. The incompatibility between this profession and any drug is pretty obvious. What the real debate is about however: Is smoking pot moral? Is recreational marijuana morally comparable to alcohol?

I don't think we're particulary worried about the substance called THC, there are plenty of other, stronger and legal, substances out there and we're not debating about it. The THC itself should not be the issue when there seems to be a clear consensus around the following: (1) Cannabis is not as addictive as alcohol, tobacco or certainly “harder” drugs like cocaine and heroin; (2) Marijuana is much less physically debilitating than “harder” drugs, as well as many legally-prescribed synthetic painkillers; (3) Deaths from a marijuana overdose are extraordinarily rare; and (4) There’s a significant and growing amount of evidence that cannabis helps relieve symptoms of many serious medical conditions — including cancer, glaucoma, and AIDS — and can be a better alternative to narcotic painkillers.

The issue here is our f#$& up concept of morality and dignity. Drinking 1 to 3 glasses of wine or 3 beers = Another normal guy; Gets a bit drunk here and there = Another normal guy; Casual marijuana use = Stoner, Abuse, Adict, hippie, etc.
I used alcochol but here's a random top 10 addictions list: http://guardianlv.com/2014/07/sexual-ad ... -the-year/
How many of them could influence the mental and phisical health of a pilot? How many of them result in a moral judment of the person? How come we accept a wrong concept of moderation and abuse for other substances or habits?

Using marijuana recreationally probably isn't a beneficial behavior for most people, but it's not inherently different than other substances, such as alcohol. Our focus shouldn’t be on the private morality of individuals who choose to smoke pot.

Generally agree. My main concern is safety is preserved.

Perhaps I'm troubled that once again our governments are focused on meeting their budget needs through different avenues to public health, this only being one example, that they then will promote to our kids. Gambling being a prominent example, leaving other organizations to try to help pick up the lives of destroyed families due to addiction.

Governments are knee deep then ....in promoting addictions. Something to be proud of, Canada. Is this all our leadership has got?
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by Sidebar »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:18 am Governments are knee deep then ....in promoting addictions. Something to be proud of, Canada. Is this all our leadership has got?
This is the best thought I've seen in this thread.

There's lots of comments here about research on the combination of marijuana and aviation. Here's two research reports from Australia.

From the conclusions of the first one: "The results of this study show that the prevalence of drug and alcohol accidents and incidents is very low in Australian civil aviation. However, where alcohol and drugs are involved, there is a very high chance of an accident, especially a fatal one."
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by rookiepilot »

"The bill creates a provincial agency that will distribute and retail pot through storefronts and online. It also creates stiff fines that could top $1 million against companies and people who sell marijuana in defiance of the government monopoly."


"For Ontario's treasury, total control over retailing recreational pot is likely to be far more lucrative than taxation. However, Sousa has yet to say how much profit he expects the province's cannabis agency will provide."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/o ... -1.4444673

Easy to see true motivations....
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by Cat Driver »

I would like to respond to this comment by cncpc.
As an example, I'm sure Just . is a sound man and a very good pilot, but he doesn't know his ass from page 4 as far as pot goes, but he blathers on as if he did. But that's Just ..
My area of expertise is not illegal drugs however I do get some of my information from true experts.

As to the dangers of marijuana most of my information came from my T.C. approved Doctor who did my medicals for around thirty years.

He was not only my Doctor but a partner in one of my flying training / charter business for many years.

His background included being involved in the study of drugs and their affect on pilots.

His opinion on marijuana was it was more dangerous for a pilot to use than alcohol due to its longer term build up in the body, and its long term affect on the brain.

Therefore in my own personal opinion the use of marijuana by a pilot who fly's for a living is it can be more dangerous than using alcohol so why risk it.
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by MedicineBuddha »

Wow! Looks like the witch hunt has begun!

First off I don’t know all there is to know on this subject and by no means am I an expert. Nor am I a user..

However, here is what I do know. A had a friend who was a soldier who went overseas. This person had been employed in their profession for 20 years and had never used marijuana. This individual was successful and professional in every sense of the word and was highly decorated. They fought for our freedom and saw some stuff that would likely send the lot of us off the deep end. In other words, the person did the governments dirty work so that the rest of us can enjoy their beers after work.

After the individual came home from a several tour deployment they became very ineffective in their career and their family life. ( my friend would be later diagnosed with severe PTSD) The person tried all opioids and almost everything to no avail.. Until they tried marijuana. Pot literally turned their life around and let them go through counseling and patch their life together. ( it also ended an alcohol addition)

I also know of some people who use pot recreationally/ medically in emergency services ..

There is also multiple strains of marijuana.

CBD: contains little or no psychoactive THC in some cases at all! It has been used to treat seizures, anxiety and PTSD.

Indica : calming / sleeping strain

Sativa : provides energy etc

Hybrid: various applications

We haven’t even discussed medical benefits for certain conditions..

Marijuana can be taken :

As a tincture
Oil infusion
CBD pill form

Etc .. it’s not just smoked..

What if, hypothetically, a pilot witnesses a horrific event or is going through an extreme family event? Would you say this pilot is not entitled / legally entitled to take themselves offline or seek medical help. Are they no longer a professional? Oh wait, mental illness / depression never happens to pilots!

The effects of a hangover are far worse than a few tokes or whatever!

Before everyone starts finger pointing .... I’m about as straight laced as they come. I won’t even drink on a pairing and I do not drink at all. I don’t like alcohol and never likely will. I get my relaxation, rush, or whatever from sports which I partake in..

Am I now allowed to look at all of you who do have the odd drink with disdain? I don’t think so..

People shouldn’t show up to work: excessively stressed, hungover, sick, injured, high or any combination. You are impaired! Period.

If you want to use marijuana recreationally or alcohol in your off hours... fine. Don’t bring it to work and be responsible.

However, I don’t tend to judge people who use it for legitimate medical reasons or who enjoy a joint now and again. It’s not my place..


Fair?
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Re: Legal Marijuana

Post by AirFrame »

Meatservo wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:56 pmIf someone told me they could detect beer six weeks after you had a few, and there was zero tolerance for beer, I guess I would have to give that a long hard think.
I would be very surprised if you couldn't detect it a month after it was consumed. Detect, mind you, not "show impairment". Heck, you can visually detect a habitual beer-drinking pilot anytime... Look at his belly.

Tests will be devised eventually that can determine what levels of impairment "equate" to alcohol. When they are, pot will be no different, except for the fact the body doesn't develop an addiction to it like it can for alcohol.
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