FLYGTA Rumors

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FltLvl190
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FLYGTA Rumors

#1 Post by FltLvl190 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:02 pm

So I have heard two rumors, and would like verification.

1) Did one of there ho's have an engine fire?

2) Are they going under? Been hearing they are planning on selling all their office shit, aircraft, parts inventory etc?
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#2 Post by photofly » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:04 pm

They shut down one engine immediately after takeoff and landed three minutes later, that much is in a CADOR, so no secret. Well done to the crew, from what I hear. As to the rest, no idea.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#3 Post by trey kule » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:12 pm

CADORs reference please.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#4 Post by Goshawk » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:28 pm

trey kule wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:12 pm
CADORs reference please.
CADORS Number: 2018O0215

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... d2018O0215
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#5 Post by trey kule » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:20 pm

Thanks Goshawk
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#6 Post by kgams » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:44 am

photofly wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:04 pm
They shut down one engine immediately after takeoff and landed three minutes later, that much is in a CADOR, so no secret. Well done to the crew, from what I hear. As to the rest, no idea.
photofly, the CADOR doesn't say engine was shutdown, it says there was an engine issue.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#7 Post by photofly » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:16 am

You're right!

Perhaps it wasn't shut down after all.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#8 Post by 172_Captain » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:53 pm

The engine was shut down. It was a blown turbo. I talked to the pilot involved
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#9 Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:19 pm

Why would you shut down the engine for a blown turbo? It still makes plenty of power, somewhere around 70% I believe.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#10 Post by anofly » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:23 am

i guess it depends where all the heat is going...
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#11 Post by photofly » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:45 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:19 pm
Why would you shut down the engine for a blown turbo? It still makes plenty of power, somewhere around 70% I believe.
I mean, why did they even need to RTB? With 71.2% power available they should have completed the flight, obviously.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#12 Post by trey kule » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:27 am

Why would you shut down the engine for a blown turbo? It still makes plenty of power, somewhere around 70% I believe.

It is a very difficult call. It might be something simple like aconnector broken, or it could be burning through the spar.

Better to get back on the ground ASAP and have it looked at.
Flight Safety’s recommendation is to shut down, as if it is going through the spar it apparently takes about 45 sec to burn through to failure.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#13 Post by digits_ » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:33 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:19 pm
Why would you shut down the engine for a blown turbo? It still makes plenty of power, somewhere around 70% I believe.
True, but you will also -most likely- be loosing a ton of oil, which creates a lot of smoke. Not easy to determine at that point if it is a blown turbo or if your engine is on fire. If it happens just after take-off, probably with low time pilots as well, I'd probably would have shut it down as well.

From an economic's point of view: shutting down might aslo save the engine.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#14 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:01 am

FltLvl190 wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:02 pm
So I have heard two rumors, and would like verification.

1) Did one of there ho's have an engine fire?

2) Are they going under? Been hearing they are planning on selling all their office shit, aircraft, parts inventory etc?
PDW will buy them out.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#15 Post by digits_ » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:09 am

photofly wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:45 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:19 pm
Why would you shut down the engine for a blown turbo? It still makes plenty of power, somewhere around 70% I believe.
I mean, why did they even need to RTB? With 71.2% power available they should have completed the flight, obviously.
I actually know of at least one company that did exactly that. Including 2 take-offs. It was not a good day :roll:
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#16 Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:13 am

The smoke/oil would be going out the exhaust and not visible from the cockpit. Definitely take it back to land at the nearest airport, but it is a Navajo, not the best single engine reputation. If it's still making power and not on fire, leave it running.

Also, it's not going to burn through the spar in 45 seconds, there's a firewall in the way. Plus the whole engine compartment is mounted above the wing. You might toast some stuff in the wing lockers AFTER the firewall is compromised, but that's it.

I will also say this. They were two low time pilots in a Navajo, experiencing an abnormal scenario, with or without visible troubling signs from an engine. Whatever they did clearly worked as everybody is alive and well with the airplane still intact.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#17 Post by oldtimer » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:05 am

How many arm chair quarterbacks remember the NavAir Navajo on departure out of Comox? A blown gasket spewed oil on the turbo and the crew turned back to land. They did not make it.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#18 Post by trey kule » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:11 pm

The smoke/oil would be going out the exhaust and not visible from the cockpit. Definitely take it back to land at the nearest airport, but it is a Navajo, not the best single engine reputation. If it's still making power and not on fire, leave it running.

Also, it's not going to burn through the spar in 45 seconds, there's a firewall in the way. Plus the whole engine compartment is mounted above the wing. You might toast some stuff in the wing lockers AFTER the firewall is compromised, but that's it.
You do not know about that of which you speak.
I
1. Not withstanding the need to get back on the ground ASAP, a Navajo flies fine on one engine...if you have a properly trained and competent pilot.

2.if the turbo charger become disconnected it is like a super blowtorch, wiser people than you say 45 seconds. Dont wait around to find out if they are correct, even if you and others need to read about an accident to learn

3. Lastly, there is avery visable grating you can see right into the turbo from the cockpit. Your claim that it is not going to be visible makes me wonder if you have ever flown a ho, as Indont know a ho pilot who was not mesmerized by the glowing turbo at night.

Btw...some of those wing lockers are nacelle tanks...just sayin...

Anytype of engine issue, get it back on the ground. Diagnosising and engine issue while flying is foolish. If even a hint of fire, shut it down, and get the fuel off to that engine..
Free advice..take it for what its worth....or wait until you can get a fresh accident if that is the only way you learn
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#19 Post by Addicted4life » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:19 pm

I have to agree 100% with Trey Kule on this one. I am graduate of Flight Safety's Navajo pilot course and I am an AME with years working on the "Ho". I have seen the effects in pictures, first hand, and actually talked with the lead Navajo production engineer from Piper about this very subject. If you suspect any turbo or exhaust or fuel or fire issues land ASAP. If you fly a navajo please heed this advise. Hopefully it will end like this event did. Many have not. Please all Navajo pilots have a close look through those access grates on the nacelles on walk around at the Turbo and all visible connections for anything out of the ordinary.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#20 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:25 pm

photofly wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:45 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:19 pm
Why would you shut down the engine for a blown turbo? It still makes plenty of power, somewhere around 70% I believe.
I mean, why did they even need to RTB? With 71.2% power available they should have completed the flight, obviously.
Trusting you're not serious? Complete the flight?

Likely sarcasm but on this site one never knows. Sure that's been done, too. :roll:
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#21 Post by 2112 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:37 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:09 am
I actually know of at least one company that did exactly that. Including 2 take-offs. It was not a good day
I think I know that place too, did the same pilot later crash said plane while attempting a T/O on empty outboards? Guessing it's the same guy that tried to get me to fly with a known oil leak? If someone want's you to fly with a blown turbo or oil pissing out of a 540 onto the turbo then it's time to seek new employment.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#22 Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:17 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:25 pm
photofly wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:45 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:19 pm
Why would you shut down the engine for a blown turbo? It still makes plenty of power, somewhere around 70% I believe.
I mean, why did they even need to RTB? With 71.2% power available they should have completed the flight, obviously.
Trusting you're not serious? Complete the flight?

Likely sarcasm but on this site one never knows. Sure that's been done, too. :roll:
Quite certain that was sarcasm. Any Navajo with an engine problem belongs on the ground ASAP.

Trey, have you ever flown a Navajo at gross on a hot day? Also, that grate looks at the exhaust manifold, before the turbo. During the day, it's pretty dark in there and you won't see anything through the grate anyway.

You say don't diagnose the engine problem in the air, yet you are diagnosing a turbo plumbing failure and shutting off an engine. As far as you can likely tell, it just isn't making proper manifold pressure. Now yes, if there is any hint of a fire, follow the checklist and shut it off.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#23 Post by photofly » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:26 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:25 pm
photofly wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:45 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:19 pm
Why would you shut down the engine for a blown turbo? It still makes plenty of power, somewhere around 70% I believe.
I mean, why did they even need to RTB? With 71.2% power available they should have completed the flight, obviously.
Trusting you're not serious? Complete the flight?

Likely sarcasm but on this site one never knows. Sure that's been done, too. :roll:
No, no, I’m quite serious. I ran the equations and calculate they had 71.2234% of rated power available.Plenty to complete the flight.
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#24 Post by trey kule » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:12 am

Trey, have you ever flown a Navajo at gross on a hot day?

Yes.
Though I expect you are actually referring to high density altitude take offs, and not just hot days. And yes to that as well.

As to the assertion I diagnose in the air, I believe that is what is referred to as a logical fallacy.
I think what we need to do here is have a new accident so everyone can respectfully speculate and, of course learn. No sense in learning from the accident history of the type from the past accidents...that’s no fun at all.

Btw. I ran Photo’s numbers again , and I can confirm them correct. So to summarize the wisdom of the crowd , an engine failure on a ho is a non event. No need to return to land, and the problem can be looked at during the next maintenance event. As to fire...,heck,,,fires are for barbeques, exhaust connections never fail, and after 1 hour of riding around in the right seat of a navajo one can learn to accurately determine the severity of the situation..not that it matters. No need to land.

Btw. Kudos to the crew that ignored the wisdom here and got the little rascal back on the ground. Regardless of what the problem was...
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Re: FLYGTA Rumors

#25 Post by kgams » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:14 pm

The fact anyone would consider continuing a flight with an engine issue rather than return to land on the perfectly good runway directly behind you boggles my mind.
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