Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

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CdnPilotsalary
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Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#1 Post by CdnPilotsalary » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:55 pm

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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#2 Post by willfly4food » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:15 pm

I'm not aware of any regional paying one cent more than they were a couple of years ago. On top of that, you have companies like WestJet LOWERING pilot pay by starting Swoop.

Abroad, it seems that salaries are going up. Australia, for example, has greatly increased pilot pay at the regional level. It's a full hundred thousand more than Encore and Jazz offer. They're even willing to sponsor and pay for you to immigrate there.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#3 Post by Victory » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:17 pm

No most airline contracts were negotiated during the lean years with no provision to get back what was given up when things turned around. It will be years in most cases before they can be renegotiated and by then things may very well have slowed down. If you want immediate results best to look overseas.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#4 Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:09 pm

Contracts can be modified. Just look at American Airlines. Company went to the union and asked to increase pay outside of normal contract negotiations.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#5 Post by Meatservo » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:45 pm

willfly4food wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:15 pm
On top of that, you have companies like WestJet LOWERING pilot pay by starting Swoop.
If I was at a wedding, or a reunion, or some other kind of celebration, and I decided to buy a round of beers for all the other pilots in the room, I wouldn't buy one for any "Swoop" pilots. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#6 Post by montado » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:51 pm

Looks like Westjet and Air Canada played their cards right to get the lowest cost on pilots. Almost a perfect execution with timing, and how everything is playing out. And in all of this pilots are pinned against each other. Westjet pilots swear to blacklist swoop pilots, Jazz pilots are divided by A and B scale, Georgian...well they are still Georgian.

Guys by the next time we go to the table to demand more it will be to late, recession is due, fuel costs will rise, Westjet and Air Canada will have a book of reasons why they can’t pay more. They are already looking beyond the next recession as to how to fool ya’ll again.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#7 Post by digits_ » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:59 pm

Hour requirements are going down. Almost no effect on pay yet.

Some smaller operators are paying retention bonuses or are increasing salaries. But most of them are not.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#8 Post by timel » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:12 pm

Lets just get this Swoop guys under ALPA Canada and proper working conditions. Managements are playing us with the usual conquer and divide. We are all in the same boat. They want to make an ultra low costs? It will not be on the pilot shoulders.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#9 Post by confusedalot » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:35 pm

Here in Canada, management will spite their face, meaning they will make emotional decisions at the expense of practical decision. ''oh my god, how can a pilot be paid more than a secretary'' :lol:

And that is how you end up in the third world. The canadian lobster in the pot theory comes to mind. (lobsters will never escape from the pot because the other ones will pull them back in)

It's going to be an interesting ride, sunwing has already done the expat pilot thing among others, suspect other operators are thinking the same. Funny thing though, ''expat'' salaries will go up, but local salaries will remain stagnant.

Hey, this is canada. Sad indeed.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#10 Post by CdnPilotsalary » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:10 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:35 pm
Here in Canada, management will spite their face, meaning they will make emotional decisions at the expense of practical decision. ''oh my god, how can a pilot be paid more than a secretary'' :lol:

And that is how you end up in the third world. The canadian lobster in the pot theory comes to mind. (lobsters will never escape from the pot because the other ones will pull them back in)

It's going to be an interesting ride, sunwing has already done the expat pilot thing among others, suspect other operators are thinking the same. Funny thing though, ''expat'' salaries will go up, but local salaries will remain stagnant.

Hey, this is canada. Sad indeed.
Also, let's not forget that any foreigner who completes their flight training in Canada (even if it's just an instructor rating, with CPL done at home*) has a clear path to residency via the 3-year post-graduation work permit.

*See https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-re ... ility.html and scroll down to "Flight Instructors".
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#11 Post by trey kule » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:54 pm

Hour requirements are going down. Almost no effect on pay yet.

Some smaller operators are paying retention bonuses or are increasing salaries. But most of them are not.
I am not involved anymore in the 703/4 levels, but pay is tricky. Almost 100% of your pilots are simply looking to get the boxes ticked and move on.. willing to take a 50% pay cut to get to the big show...will walk out on a bond with the ink still wet on their PPC if it means a chance to move up...I have seen it happen during times that were far more difficult for career advancement.
So why increase pay?

The retention bonus is a good idea as it means that those pilots who honestly meant it when they pledged everlasting love have an incentive to stay..
A two tier pay system, if you like...

I think it is the future for northern operators

As a personal observation, I think unequal treatment, favoritism, and pay by negotiation are far bigger challanges for a lot of small operators, that could be easily resolved.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#12 Post by digits_ » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:23 pm

trey kule wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:54 pm

I am not involved anymore in the 703/4 levels, but pay is tricky. Almost 100% of your pilots are simply looking to get the boxes ticked and move on.. willing to take a 50% pay cut to get to the big show...will walk out on a bond with the ink still wet on their PPC if it means a chance to move up...I have seen it happen during times that were far more difficult for career advancement.
So why increase pay?
Well if there is a bond and they pay their bond, there should be no guilt felt by the pilot or anger by the management that a pilot leaves, even the day of his ppc. That's the contract that was in place with the necessary "fines" if it is broken.

On the other hand, if there is no bond and you do that, then you are a big asshole yes.

Regarding pay: it's a self fulfilling prophecy. If the pay is shitty because everyone leaves anyway, then, well, everyone will leave. A lot more people will stay at 703/704 if pay and schedule is good, especially people living outside of major cities, pilots with some "different" priorities (eg home every night on a small plane vs hotels on a big jet), etc.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#13 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:14 pm

I think for now - with the quality of....many...northern operators - there are a flood of low time pilots returning to the big cities - filling the low time seats, keeping wages down.

Once we see northern operators shutting down permanently due to staffage - we'll know the shortage is truly on our doorstep.

So far I am only really hearing big complaints from flight schools and Georgian/EVAS. Jazz, Encore and Sky are still in good shape but realizing the days of highly experienced crewmembers are diminishing quickly.

I hate to say it but the flight schools complaining is a very good sign. It means fewer pilots are entering the workforce.

But we can't blame the guys and girls coming home to roost on low pay seats - becayse those atrocious conditions were setup decades and generations ago.

This shortage starts with the lowest common denominator (BJ from YZF seems to come to mind). Once these guys shutter their doors - everything will trickle up.

Fingers crossed we start seeing the effects before the economy takes a steaming dump on our doorstep.

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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#14 Post by trey kule » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:52 pm

A lot more people will stay at 703/704 if pay and schedule is good, especially people living outside of major cities, pilots with some "different" priorities (eg home every night on a small plane vs hotels on a big jet), etc.

On what basis do you make such a claim?
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#15 Post by digits_ » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:18 pm

trey kule wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:52 pm
A lot more people will stay at 703/704 if pay and schedule is good, especially people living outside of major cities, pilots with some "different" priorities (eg home every night on a small plane vs hotels on a big jet), etc.

On what basis do you make such a claim?
Partially on what I've seen and on some reasoning.

Let's make some assumptions:
1) If you want to go to the airlines, in this climate, when you have 2000 hours you could be at a regional or "better".
2) 703/704 operators have about 60% of pilots with less than 2000 hours (A), about 30% between (B) 2000-6000 and 10% over (C) 6000 hours. It varies greatly per operator, but from the companies I've dealt with, this seems to be accurate
3) Nowadays, 703/704 companies are losing about 10% of their pilot population each month
4) People do not like changing jobs. They'll only do it for a good reason.

If people leave with less than 2000 hours for the airlines, there is indeed nothing you can do. They will leave eventually. You can try to prevent them from leaving before they have 500 or 1000 hours though. From colleagues and ex colleagues I have heard that at some places you'd make more at a regional with paying out 75% of your bond vs staying at your current salary.

If people leave after they have flown with you 6 months of more with 2000 hours, they don't have the airline bug. If they left, they might have left to another 703 704 company, or, maybe they did go to the airlines as a "last resort"

If people with lots of seniority and tons of hours leave, they might just be sick of it, not like the direction the company is heading, looking for something new.

For (A) you can try to save a bit of money by have them stay a bit longer. They don't want to be at your company though, they'll leave asap.
For (B), your actions will have the most effect. They probably like the type of work they are doing, but temptation is everywhere. The fact that they started at your company instead of going to the airlines means that they want to be there, they want to give it an honest chance. But you have to acknowledge that these people are in fairly high demand nowadays.
For (C) it doesn't really matter too much, they found some routing, they are not eager to leave. They will probably not leave. Or not right away.

From an operators perspective, it is easy to figure out: pilots who are leaving for other 703/704 ops are the ones that you could have kept. Ask them why they left. It's probably too late for them, but not for the pilots that are still working there.

Some reasons:
- creative with regulations: the goal is no longer to avoid getting caught while breaking them, but making sure pilots feel comfortable working there. Getting away with it and flying under TC's radar is no longer enough
- pay: If a pilot leaves you have to pay a new pilot a PPC. Might as well give the pilots who stay a raise for a significant portion of the PPC's value. Some companies do, some don't.
- schedule: 10 ON 4 OFF is not attractive. Bit extreme, but it depends on the individual
- maintenance/equipment: for a long term job pilots don't just want to fly legally maintained airplanes, they want to fly properly maintained airplanes


Or it might all be nonsense :bear:
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#16 Post by CdnPilotsalary » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:07 pm

Does anyone think there will be a US-style correction for pay at the regional level? I imagine that the regionals would begin hiring at regulatory minimums (250TT) before substantially increasing pay. Thoughts?
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#17 Post by co-joe » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:41 pm

CdnPilotsalary wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:07 pm
Does anyone think there will be a US-style correction for pay at the regional level? I imagine that the regionals would begin hiring at regulatory minimums (250TT) before substantially increasing pay. Thoughts?

If the Canadian government put a 1500 hour rule in like they have in the states then yes, absolutely the regionals would have to pay more as they lowered the bar below this over a year ago. As long as they can legally hire 250 hours and an iatra, then no, they won't have to.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#18 Post by fish4life » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:34 am

Sadly it will take a colgan like event before he Gov changes the fact that we can have a CPT with as much experience as an FO min in the USA
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#19 Post by 172_Captain » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:50 am

willfly4food wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:15 pm
Abroad, it seems that salaries are going up. Australia, for example, has greatly increased pilot pay at the regional level. It's a full hundred thousand more than Encore and Jazz offer. They're even willing to sponsor and pay for you to immigrate there.
Can you name any of these regionals? If this is true I’d genuinely consider it.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#20 Post by StudentPilot » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:19 am

I think the first companies that will need to increase pay will be the 703/704 operators that want to keep operating without (too many) parked planes. If 702/703/704 pay and conditions go up enough to attract a lot of new pilots away from the regionals, and the regionals are hiring 250 hour pilots, then they may consider increasing pay. Until then they will continue to recruit pilots from the smaller operators and reduce experience requirements to hire from FTUs. The majors may reduce their requirements but they will keep plucking pilots from the regionals and hiring the more experienced 703/704 pilots, I doubt they will significantly increase pay any time soon.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#21 Post by dhc# » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:28 am

fish4life wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:34 am
Sadly it will take a colgan like event before he Gov changes the fact that we can have a CPT with as much experience as an FO min in the USA
But...but....TC's Risk Management and SMS process will surely keep this from ever happening in Canada.... :twisted:

The regionals will do anything but increase wages, look at how some of them have paired up with various smaller companies or flight colleges to glean the ranks to keep the supply of bodies into the right hand seats flowing....maybe once that supply of cheap labour is depleted, they will be forced to pay up or park planes.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#22 Post by lownslow » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:06 am

digits_ wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:18 pm
Let's make some assumptions:
1) If you want to go to the airlines, in this climate, when you have 2000 hours you could be at a regional or "better".
2) 703/704 operators have about 60% of pilots with less than 2000 hours (A), about 30% between (B) 2000-6000 and 10% over (C) 6000 hours. It varies greatly per operator, but from the companies I've dealt with, this seems to be accurate
3) Nowadays, 703/704 companies are losing about 10% of their pilot population each month
4) People do not like changing jobs. They'll only do it for a good reason.
I don't know where you are right now but those assumptions are about two years out of date. As for the OP, recruitment at the regionals hasn't yet become enough of a problem to alter pay. There are currently pathways being made to keep it that way so I wouldn't expect any significant pay changes for the next 5-7 years by which time supply and demand may have equalled one another again.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#23 Post by digits_ » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:37 am

lownslow wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:06 am
digits_ wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:18 pm
Let's make some assumptions:
1) If you want to go to the airlines, in this climate, when you have 2000 hours you could be at a regional or "better".
2) 703/704 operators have about 60% of pilots with less than 2000 hours (A), about 30% between (B) 2000-6000 and 10% over (C) 6000 hours. It varies greatly per operator, but from the companies I've dealt with, this seems to be accurate
3) Nowadays, 703/704 companies are losing about 10% of their pilot population each month
4) People do not like changing jobs. They'll only do it for a good reason.
I don't know where you are right now but those assumptions are about two years out of date. As for the OP, recruitment at the regionals hasn't yet become enough of a problem to alter pay. There are currently pathways being made to keep it that way so I wouldn't expect any significant pay changes for the next 5-7 years by which time supply and demand may have equalled one another again.
Would you care to correct them? I'm curious what it looks like from your perspective.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#24 Post by lownslow » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:03 am

digits_ wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:37 am
lownslow wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:06 am
digits_ wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:18 pm
Let's make some assumptions:
1) If you want to go to the airlines, in this climate, when you have 2000 hours you could be at a regional or "better".
2) 703/704 operators have about 60% of pilots with less than 2000 hours (A), about 30% between (B) 2000-6000 and 10% over (C) 6000 hours. It varies greatly per operator, but from the companies I've dealt with, this seems to be accurate
3) Nowadays, 703/704 companies are losing about 10% of their pilot population each month
4) People do not like changing jobs. They'll only do it for a good reason.
I don't know where you are right now but those assumptions are about two years out of date. As for the OP, recruitment at the regionals hasn't yet become enough of a problem to alter pay. There are currently pathways being made to keep it that way so I wouldn't expect any significant pay changes for the next 5-7 years by which time supply and demand may have equalled one another again.
Would you care to correct them? I'm curious what it looks like from your perspective.
I'm shooting from the hip with these numbers so they won't be perfect but at least reasonably close:
1) closer to 1200-1500 hours now and basically no PIC but possible with less
2) around 80% have under 2000 hours
3) sounds about right
4) depends on age. Under 30 or so it's like they never acknowledge 703/704 as being a job in the first place, merely an inconvenience.
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Re: Since this "Pilot Shortage" started, has pay gone up at any regional or major airline?

#25 Post by dhc# » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:29 am

Anyone care to speculate which airlines will be forced to park planes/cancel flts, due to lack of pilots with another busy summer season approaching ? Things seem quiet now, but is it the "calm before the storm" type of scenario in Canada ?
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