Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

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CpnCrunch
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#26 Post by CpnCrunch » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:14 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:02 pm

From your prespective (ground) he was in and out of clouds. From the ground, it may seem like an airplane is in and out of clouds when in fact, it is above and your sight of the aircraft is obscured by small, non-dense clouds below the aircraft's altitude.
I was at similar elevation (a few hundred feet lower) half a mile away. It's possible they were in a narrow corridor between the clouds, but it didn't look like that was the case.
I would really just let it go...
I already did...see my comments above. It's done and finished. I didn't realise so many people would get butthurt about it.
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#27 Post by C.W.E. » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:23 pm

This is one of the most weird threads ever posted on Avcanada.
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#28 Post by CpnCrunch » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:39 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:23 pm
This is one of the most weird threads ever posted on Avcanada.
Thanks. Probably my fault for ranting about a WTF moment this morning, without giving all the pertinent information at the start.
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#29 Post by C.W.E. » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:49 pm

Don't sweat it, it gives everyone the chance to participate. :mrgreen:
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dlongo
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#30 Post by dlongo » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:58 pm

Which airline was this? FLY GTA?
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#31 Post by CpnCrunch » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:38 pm

dlongo wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:58 pm
Which airline was this? FLY GTA?
No. I will just say that the owner has an interesting history and the CP has a very good reputation.

Probably a good idea to look up the owner's name on TATC before applying for a job.
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#32 Post by fish4life » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:41 pm

He should have leveled off at 300’ instead I guess to stay legal... CPN I’ve flown into places where the weather was too low to conduct an IFR approach so we’d have to go VFR all the way or IFR to somewhere close that could get lower eg 300’ and then scud it over VFR. You do realize VFR mins with the ops spec is 1sm and 300’ right?
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#33 Post by TeePeeCreeper » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:44 pm

dogfood wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:07 pm
Even with that its still vfr I fly 300-1 all the time it ain't that bad
Ah I don’t miss “those days” slugging it out on the 3-1 op spec.

Might be “legal” but do you really feel safe doing so?

All the best,
TPC

(Dosent miss having his nose pressed to the front wind screen, while murking about in the mist doing point to point Nav)
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#34 Post by Heliian » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:52 am

[/quote]

^That
[/quote]

What do you even mean by this? Are you admonishing or praising his statement?

I know you're more eloquent than that.
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#35 Post by Maynard » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:23 am

What got everyone so wound up, is your judgement on another’s decisions, from the ground. You weren’t in the plane, in the room checking weather and loads, you didn’t even know how far the flight was. I haven’t met many pilots yet who don’t have some sort of pride in the job they do, safety being part of that. So to have someone staring from the ground, start yabbering about “what the hell are these guys doing? I have to talk to the CP”, of course it’s going to piss people off. It’s as bad as a passenger calling the flight attendant because there’s a hydraulic leak (oops it’s type 1 fluid). CpnCrunch, do you fly? If so, who for? Seems you don’t have much experience flying nort of TO.....
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#36 Post by SuperchargedRS » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:49 am

Heliian wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:52 am
SuperchargedRS wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:52 am

^That
What do you even mean by this? Are you admonishing or praising his statement?

I know you're more eloquent than that.

I mean I agree with his statement, flying cargo, people, puppies, nuns, axe killers, doesn't make a bit of difference, the flight is safe and prudent or it's not, what's in the cabin does not change a damn thing.
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#37 Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:57 am

Maynard wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:23 am
CpnCrunch, do you fly? If so, who for? Seems you don’t have much experience flying nort of TO.....
I fly from this airport all the time. VFR, IFR, floats, wheels, and I have a pretty good idea of what safe and legal looks like for all of those.

Regarding 300-1 (from previous posts): 300-1 isn't exactly my idea of safe for a scheduled air service between airports equipped with instrument approaches.
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#38 Post by Redneck_pilot86 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:31 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:31 pm
dogfood wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:07 pm
Even with that its still vfr I fly 300-1 all the time it ain't that bad
By definition it's not VFR if you're actually in the clouds.

I notice there was a SPECI just after takeoff. Here is the wx:

SPECI .... 071545Z VRB02KT 1 1/2SM BR VCFG OVC007 06/06 A3032
RMK SF8 CIG RAG SLP269=
METAR .... 071500Z 00000KT 4SM BR VCFG SCT008 BKN015 OVC050
06/06 A3032 RMK SF3SC2SC3 SLP269=

Takeoff was at 1533, and conditions were similar to the SPECI. Looks like they had a look at the METAR, thought it looked ok, and didn't realise conditions had deteriorated.
A SPECI should be triggered if either the vis dropped below 3SM or the ceiling dropped below 1000', right? I can't believe it took more than a few minutes to issue the SPECI after that criteria was met.

This thread says the flight took 11 minutes. You say departure was at 1533, therefore landing was 1544, a minute before the SPECI for deteriorated conditions was issued. Sounds to me like he timed things perfectly.
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#39 Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:06 pm

Redneck_pilot86 wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:31 pm

A SPECI should be triggered if either the vis dropped below 3SM or the ceiling dropped below 1000', right? I can't believe it took more than a few minutes to issue the SPECI after that criteria was met.

This thread says the flight took 11 minutes. You say departure was at 1533, therefore landing was 1544, a minute before the SPECI for deteriorated conditions was issued. Sounds to me like he timed things perfectly.
SCT means half the sky is covered. In this case it was in the direction of takeoff, and that could be seen from the airport.
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#40 Post by A346Dude » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:39 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:57 am
Regarding 300-1 (from previous posts): 300-1 isn't exactly my idea of safe for a scheduled air service between airports equipped with instrument approaches.
So it's safe if the airports aren't equipped with instrument approaches and going VFR is the only option?
CpnCrunch wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:06 pm
SCT means half the sky is covered. In this case it was in the direction of takeoff, and that could be seen from the airport.
SCT means 3-4 oktas covered. It could be a half at most, or it could be barely over a quarter.
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#41 Post by northernpilot2 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:00 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:57 am
Regarding 300-1 (from previous posts): 300-1 isn't exactly my idea of safe for a scheduled air service between airports equipped with instrument approaches.
For me personally, I go IFR or I cancel if I know I can't make it in. If I go try the approach and its a 50/50 chance of getting in, then I carry lots of gas and bump off pax/cargo if reqd. I don't see the need to make things difficult for no reason just for pop and chips deliveries with the 300-1 crap. I know there are people who do it, I just hope everyone stays safe. 8)

Also, how many times a year are there days with 300-1 weather? Not alot. Most of the time up north, its cold and clear in the winter. Wait for tomorrow, jeez.. :smt040
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#42 Post by altiplano » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:46 am

SCT cloud does not constitute a ceiling.

So 4sm with a 1500' ceiling?

Sounds like VFR weather to me for the departure.

Depending on how well I knew the area, are there mountains? I might revise that and want better, or be comfortable with less... Special VFR out of the zone or whatever...

If you don't like it, don't get on a flight with this company...

I've known a few over the years that I wouldn't let my family get on a flight operated by...
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Re: Why would a scheduled air service be flying VFR in this weather?

#43 Post by CpnCrunch » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:25 am

altiplano wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:46 am
SCT cloud does not constitute a ceiling.

So 4sm with a 1500' ceiling?

Sounds like VFR weather to me for the departure.
I've updated the first post in this thread with all the pertinent info. SCT is fine if you fly around/under/over it. It can also mean that up to half the sky is obscured in an overcast layer (which it was here). So essentially it was OVC007 in the direction they were flying. Sometimes a METAR doesn't give the full picture.
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