Pilot incapacitation training is a TC, FAA and I’m sure a European requirement. In fact I’d be surprised if it isn’t required worldwide. We also have pilots flying under restriction that cannot fly unless they are with another pilot who is unrestricted. All this is in recognition of the fact that humans can suffer failures, thankfully still much less frequently than machinery and computers do.
When a single pilot aircraft suffers a pilot failure the backup is either another pilot flying it remotely or automation capable of safely flying the aircraft in a dynamic civilian environment by itself. If something like that existed the next very tiny step (at least from an engineers point of view) is getting rid of the pilot altogether.
Remotely piloted aircraft with passengers are a non-starter for a whole bunch of reasons many of which are common to fully automated passenger planes that are even less likely.
Then there are the security considerations standing in the way as well. The FAA still requires 2 in the cockpit in case the remaining pilot is mentally or otherwise compromised.
Single Pilot Airliners?
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Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
seems to me the discussion is very similar when F/E's were removed. Let's face it auto pilots can fly much better (not aerobatics yet-likely coming though) than any pilot and they don't get tired. Pretty soon machines will out think us as well -- face it -- there will be no pilots hauling the big iron in 50 years -- yes some of the new starts will see that day -- there are actually people who did not live before the smart phone and that was developed in less than 30 years.
Black air has no lift - extra fuel has no weight
http://www.blackair.ca
http://www.blackair.ca
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
Not the same at all. The systems FE's used to manage and monitor are now greatly simplified and monitored by computers that alert the pilots when something goes wrong. And that's the key phrase really...when something goes wrong as it frequently does.
Wrong, wrong and more wrong. They fly consistently...not better, and when they are doing something inappropriate or incorrect they do that consistently as well until a brain intervenes. I'll state it again, autopilots are nothing but a tool for the pilot to use to the degree they feel appropriate to the situation.
Artificial intelligence. Another issue that goes way beyond aviation.
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
If they are alone in the cockpit anyway, why would they leave? Just redesign the seat...
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
Elon Musk just proved you can navigate an entire rocket out into space and bring the boosters back simultaneously for perfect landings. All autonomously.
Yes, the center-stage didn't make it, but that was it's first flight... It will take some time to iron it out, but i'm fairly sure we'll have autonomous aircraft in my lifetime. That's when GA will die, as there will be no need for small aircraft to train pilots anymore. We won't be allowed into controlled airspace at all, so the only people flying will have their own private airstrips in the middle of nowhere.
Yes, the center-stage didn't make it, but that was it's first flight... It will take some time to iron it out, but i'm fairly sure we'll have autonomous aircraft in my lifetime. That's when GA will die, as there will be no need for small aircraft to train pilots anymore. We won't be allowed into controlled airspace at all, so the only people flying will have their own private airstrips in the middle of nowhere.
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
Except for a room full of engineers...after years of meticulously planning and mitigating every conceivable possible contingency...in tightly predetermined conditions...with no passengers...and a self destruct button in the distinctly possible case it all goes horribly wrong and becomes a threat to people.
A remarkable and exciting achievement for sure but keep it in perspective.
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
Have a look at the crash numbers for military drone. You might change your mind
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
So you have the numbers?! Do you see a trend...more flights, fewer accidents?
In any event, we keep drifting to unmanned aircraft. What we are really ralking about here, is dropping one crew member. It seems hard for some to stay on topic, and continuosly drift to unmanned aircraft.
In any event, we keep drifting to unmanned aircraft. What we are really ralking about here, is dropping one crew member. It seems hard for some to stay on topic, and continuosly drift to unmanned aircraft.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
Humans are on this big automation craze right now. It is in the development stage. We can do some pretty cool stuff with automation, however, it's not that reliable and still needs human intervention.
Don't forget regulatory hurdles with single pilot airliners also.
Boeing really needs to shill now since they were "battered" by the recent legal dealings.
Don't forget regulatory hurdles with single pilot airliners also.
Boeing really needs to shill now since they were "battered" by the recent legal dealings.
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
Not to what I can remember - argument was one less set of eyes in the flight deck and (old automation) increased work load on front crew thus reducing time spent flying and it was considered a large safety issue.We know that automation has evolved and systems management has moved over to computers and there is very little need for technical knowledge anymore. Pilots just to know how to integrate and co-ordinate the drills and check lists with the computers. There is far less systems and aircraft knowledge required with the modern aircraft.Not the same at all. The systems FE's used to manage and monitor are now greatly simplified and monitored by computers that alert the pilots when something goes wrong. And that's the key phrase really...when something goes wrong as it frequently does.
And yes autopilots are automatons but they still physically fly better that any pilot (we are talking heavy iron) and pilots manage the garbage in, garbage out so, yes we will be replaced by an AI in the future. Maybe distant future tech wise but in actual years, likely within the next 50 years.
Little drift here but skies are filling up so I can see in the near future flying will be like taking a greyhound - can you say 03:00 dep for BF nowhere - then we can truly call ourselves bus drivers -- lmfaoooo
Black air has no lift - extra fuel has no weight
http://www.blackair.ca
http://www.blackair.ca
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
Again...no they don’t. I dont know where you get that idea but it is false.
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
Sorry Rockie, valleyboy is right. The autopilot physically handles the aircraft just as well as a flesh and blood pilot, at least for the departure through to approach phases. Granted, I've as yet to see one do a taxi and take-off.
From a technical standpoint we are not that far off from single pilot airliners.
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
Not even close. The autopilot does nothing except perform basic tasks according to very limited programming. It reacts, it does not anticipate. It cannot "feel" when something is happening until long after a pilot does, and then only if actual performance exceeds pre-programmed parameters. It is not as smooth as a pilot nor anywhere near as capable. A pilot can be trusted...an autopilot never can.
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
A pilot can be trusted...an autopilot never can.
Yep...lots of proof of that.......trusted pilots saving the day.
Never failing to shut down the wrong engine. Not noticing aircraft on the taxiway.
And, of course, the suicidal autopilots.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
Yes Trey Kule. Give me a properly trained pilot any day over an autopilot.
What I don't get is why you are arguing this. Next time you go to work actually pay attention to how you directly control what the autpilot does either through the FMC or the MCP. Next, keep track of the times you intervene in what the autopilot is doing and imagine what the consequences might be if you did not.
What I don't get is why you are arguing this. Next time you go to work actually pay attention to how you directly control what the autpilot does either through the FMC or the MCP. Next, keep track of the times you intervene in what the autopilot is doing and imagine what the consequences might be if you did not.
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
The topic that began this thread was removing one pilot. So, why will it need two pilots to intervene?
And do you not think that in 10 or 20 years, technology will advance regarding automation? We are not talking about today.
It seems that aerodynamically, not much has really changed in airliners ( and military aircraft).
The advances are in the technology in systems, engines, construction materials etc..
Technology has made great strides in aircraft. I dont think pilots have enjoyed the same evolutionary gains.
And do you not think that in 10 or 20 years, technology will advance regarding automation? We are not talking about today.
It seems that aerodynamically, not much has really changed in airliners ( and military aircraft).
The advances are in the technology in systems, engines, construction materials etc..
Technology has made great strides in aircraft. I dont think pilots have enjoyed the same evolutionary gains.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
The advantage another pilot has over an autopilot is that there's always a brain watching what the other brain is doing and backing it up. Surely you've seen the boards up in the sim building recognizing the fact that humans not only make mistakes but that it's normal? Autopilots make mistakes all-the-time too, the difference is not just that they won't correct them...they don't even know that they've made them. That's because they're just stupid machines without a brain that cannot think cannot be trusted...ever.
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
I am sure I have not gone completely senile and am sure my memory is correct.
The last flight I made before I retired was sitting in the jump seat of a 767-300ER on a flight from Turkey to Amsterdam and we had had a very long day so to make life easier the airplane was set up for an autoland at Amsterdam.
There was a fairly strong crosswind and the airplane made a flawless approach and a flawless landing.
It did not taxi off the runway and to the terminal though.
That was probably a rare occasion when the automatics actually worked though because reading this forum it seems that only pilots can fly the airplane accurately.
So I guess there has to be several pilots in them to make sure the automatics don't kill everyone on board.
The last flight I made before I retired was sitting in the jump seat of a 767-300ER on a flight from Turkey to Amsterdam and we had had a very long day so to make life easier the airplane was set up for an autoland at Amsterdam.
There was a fairly strong crosswind and the airplane made a flawless approach and a flawless landing.
It did not taxi off the runway and to the terminal though.
That was probably a rare occasion when the automatics actually worked though because reading this forum it seems that only pilots can fly the airplane accurately.
So I guess there has to be several pilots in them to make sure the automatics don't kill everyone on board.
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
No question that single pilot airliners are coming.
But I take exception to autopilots handling the aircraft better all the time. Yeah they can consistently hold an input for a long time, and typically do a good job - but from poorly intercepted LOCs, even non-intercepted LOCs in strong winds despite showing capture, false captures, marginal speed control, among other things...
They're going to have to put some big boxes on those aircraft to handle things like thrust asymmetry and big crosswinds, and develop the AI to add a consistently predictive, evaluative measure to performance.
They will target the ULH aircraft first. Aircraft like 777s already have hefty triple autopilots... and there will still be 2 pilots at first (instead of 4) just one will be in the bunk. That will make the transition more palatable for the general public. Once the track record is established, they will start pushing the short haul aircraft as 1 pilot.
But I take exception to autopilots handling the aircraft better all the time. Yeah they can consistently hold an input for a long time, and typically do a good job - but from poorly intercepted LOCs, even non-intercepted LOCs in strong winds despite showing capture, false captures, marginal speed control, among other things...
They're going to have to put some big boxes on those aircraft to handle things like thrust asymmetry and big crosswinds, and develop the AI to add a consistently predictive, evaluative measure to performance.
They will target the ULH aircraft first. Aircraft like 777s already have hefty triple autopilots... and there will still be 2 pilots at first (instead of 4) just one will be in the bunk. That will make the transition more palatable for the general public. Once the track record is established, they will start pushing the short haul aircraft as 1 pilot.
Last edited by altiplano on Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Single Pilot Airliners?
Autoland systems have defined wind limits that are well below the actual aircraft limits. They also are limited to runways equipped to do them on. A pilot on the other hand is limited by the aircraft limits and can land on thousands of runways the autoland cannot. Autolands have to be monitored every second and the pilot must be prepared to disconnect it and take over manually for a landing provided they can see the runway, or perform a go-around. Of course you knew all that at one time . but must have forgotten it.
When pilots are really tired they will sometimes opt for an automatic landing only provided it is possible, but as always they must monitor it to ensure adequate performance and be prepared at any time to take over manually.
