Unserviceable Equipment C172

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ahramin
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Unserviceable Equipment C172

#1 Post by ahramin » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:12 pm

So CAR 605.10 says that if there is no MEL, you can fly with unserviceable equipment as long as it isn't required by:
(a) CARs Standards
(b) any equipment list published by the manufacturer respecting aircraft equipment that is required for the intended flight
(c) ADs
(d) CARs

Day VFR flight in uncontrolled airspace, I know I can go even though my strobe lights and transponder are U/S, but then wait a minute, I look at the equipment list in the AFM and whoa, both strobes and transponders are required equipment!

Am I reading this right? Under these conditions the plane would be grounded?
MEL.png
MEL.png (137.8 KiB) Viewed 1939 times
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#2 Post by fish4life » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:16 pm

I believe you are grounded because an MEL has a way of determining the cause of the fault and has an acceptable / safe way to isolate the system eg circuit breaker pull. The reasoning behind this is you may think the strobe is burnt out but it is in fact shorting somewhere and is now a fire risk, without a manufacture approved MEL you can't depart with it
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#3 Post by ahramin » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:18 pm

That can't be the reason because even without an MEL you still have to isolate the system if you are flying with unserviceable equipment. CAR 605.10 (2) (a)
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#4 Post by ifrroutes » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:01 pm

That looks like a build sheet to me. Where does it say it is required for day VFR?
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#5 Post by Big Pistons Forever » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:20 pm

The Type Cerficate Data Sheet for the C 172 R & S has an extra note that is not in early version. It refers to US Federal Aviation Regulation 23 1401 (d) and references ACE-07-05.
This generates the requirement for strobe lights and is therefore why the POH lists those lights as “required”
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#6 Post by ahramin » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:22 pm

The equipment list in the AFM doesn't specify what type of operation the equipment is required for. It just lists required or not.

Big Pistons Forever I think you have hit the nail on the head. The note says: R= Required items or equipment for FAA certification (14 CFR Part 23 or Part 91). I'm guessing these rules now require strobe lights for new aircraft regardless of intended operation. Doesn't explain the transponder though. I found a list of required equipment by type of operation (DV/NV/DI/NI) in the limitations section and it requires an encoder for IFR flight but transponder is not even listed. Strange.

So am I correct in saying that according the the CARs, these 172s cannot be legally flown with U/S strobe lights?
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#7 Post by lownslow » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:28 pm

I guess that strobe is going to have to burn out after departure then.
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#8 Post by ahramin » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:34 pm

They require you to have it, but they don't require you to turn it on!
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#9 Post by jg24 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:00 pm

lownslow wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:28 pm
I guess that strobe is going to have to burn out after departure then.

"Oh, well will you look at that, what timing eh?"
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#10 Post by PilotDAR » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:12 am

An aircraft type certificate may specify an MEL, or it may specify required equipment to be operational, or it may be silent. A regional authority may similarly specify minimum equipment for flight in an area, which is not aircraft specific, any type would require. If the FAA has merged the two with something like strobe lights, that's a little confusing.

If an MEL is approved for a type (which is not for a 172), the MEL will have specific operational conditions, instructions, limitations, and time to repair. If those elements, what you're looking at is not an MEL. An equipment list is, as mentioned, a build list, which is mostly there for the pilot's reference for weight and balance. It does not replace an MEL. I agree there may be a little confusing merge, but it ends up being the pilots duty to sort the two lists out, and apply them properly.

So, in the absence of an MEL (172), if you're flying by day only, and don't need nav lights, and you are satisfied that you can safely isolate that system and identify as unserviceable, you could fly the plane that way, unless another operational regulation required the use of nav lights by day in that airspace, in which case that aircraft is not airworthy for flight in that airspace.

But, as the pilot, you're taking more than the normal responsibility for taking off with an unserviceable system in a non MEL aircraft. If it turns out that you got it wrong, you're the one flying an unairworthy aircraft. This is "if in doubt, don't" territory.

Yes, you could potentially safely get from A to B having departed with one mag not working, or a flat brake, or an oil pressure indicator not working, but there will be no looking the other way by TC of they catch you doing it. The requirement for those things to work goes further back to the certification basis of the aircraft, those things are required to work for any aircraft for which they are required by regulation. This is why, for larger aircraft, an MEL is a practical idea, there's enough redundancy to be able to conditionally cover a defect - for a time, and the commercial value in proving this during certification and MEL development. For a 172, there really isn't.

An example which comes up, and I've had to deal with, is hail damage - oops, it's dinted, can I fly it home? It looks safe enough, and I know that golf balls are dinted so they go faster, so this should work.... Well.... Cessna does define negligible damage, which give a pilot or maintainer a very sound basis to release the aircraft to service with the defect. Piper does not broadly define any allowance for negligible damage for the Cherokee and derivative types. On a PA-28-161, technically, one dint, and it's grounded, waiting for a new skin. Now, that's ridiculous, and I know it. But when a PA-28-161 owner contacted me with exactly that problem, the resolution was an approval. The basis of that approval was reference to a little known Piper service letter for a certain Arrow and Semiole. That service letter defined precisely what hail damage could be tolerated (though it did require replacement of the flight controls). But even then, TC required I test fly the plane to assure it continued to handle properly.

Pilots have super freedom, but behind it is a responsibility to understand a lot of background information, or at least know to stop and ask the right question before deciding to fly!
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#11 Post by ahramin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:24 am

PilotDAR, you seem to be saying that if there is no MEL, then it's up to the pilot to determine if the equipment is needed for the flight. The CARs seem to say different though:
Unserviceable and Removed Equipment — Aircraft without a Minimum Equipment List
605.10 (1) Where a minimum equipment list has not been approved in respect of the operator of an aircraft, no person shall conduct a take-off in the aircraft with equipment that is not serviceable or that has been removed, where that equipment is required by

(a) the standards of airworthiness that apply to day or night VFR or IFR flight, as applicable;

(b) any equipment list published by the aircraft manufacturer respecting aircraft equipment that is required for the intended flight;

(c) an air operator certificate, a special authorization issued under subsection 604.05(2), a special flight operations certificate or a flight training unit operating certificate;

(d) an airworthiness directive; or

(e) these Regulations.
The owner doesn't have an MEL for this 172, so 605.10 (1) clearly applies. Theoretically the strobe lights and the transponder are U/S. Cessna has published an equipment list in Section 6 of the AFM that says both are required as attached above. Cessna has also included a Kinds of Operation Equipment List in Section 2 Operating Limitations, stating that strobe lights are required for all operations. No mention of transponders. I can't see any way to get around following the limitations section, so I don't see how anyone could argue you can fly without strobe lights, but the transponder is only listed in Section 6 Weight and Balance and Equipment List.

Are you saying that CAR 605.10 (1) (b) does not refer to the list in Section 6? Or never applies, even if the list is in the Limitations section?
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#12 Post by torquey401 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:44 am

This is not a run of the mill 172 (CAR 3 certified).

This is a FAR 23 certified 172S. It has it's own section in the TCDS. It is certified to different requirements.

Is the aircraft airworthy without strobes and a transponder? Better start reading!

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... E/3A12.pdf
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#13 Post by PilotDAR » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:23 pm

I agree that in the case of a later 172, with the reference to the equipment list posted and the CAR stated, it's fuzzy. Here's why:

Typically (though again, fuzzy here) section 6, W&B is not an approved section of the flight manual, so not strictly regulatory. But in this case, I'm honestly not sure of the status of the Cessna section 6, so I'm not asserting myself on this point. I agree that the TCDS does say stobes have to work - so they have to work, not optional, without an STC. I think this is an over reaching of authority by the FAA, and could make Cessna feel the pain of an owner who is grounded away from home for something as simple as strobe lights. However, let's go back equipment list image posted further up the thread; I don't read there that equipment is required or not, simply if the aircraft left the factory with that item, that's the installation reference, weight and C of G. I see an alternate static. If you have a steam gauge version of the aircraft, operating day VFR, it might not even have an alternate static, it's not required by regulation. It it's installed, but plugged, is the aircraft U/S because the equipment list mentions it? I see a reference to DME. How many of these aircraft leave the factory with a DME? I certainly have seen these lists where there are options such that one excludes another item - they can't both be there, so the fact that that list mentions it, does not mean it has to be installed. This is partly why (at least in Canada) section 6 is not approved, TC does not want to wade through a complete evaluation of that information for a GA aircraft.

Certainly, as the pilot, if you do not feel you can defend your decision to fly with a U/S item, and how that was safely and compliantly done, don't do it! Because, where the CAR states "no person", the "person" would be the pilot!
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#14 Post by ahramin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:10 pm

Sorry I should have been clearer about that list. Not all items mentioned on the list are required. The alternate static and DME are -S and -O respectively (Standard and Optional). Not required. Only those with -R are required.
Certainly, as the pilot, if you do not feel you can defend your decision to fly with a U/S item, and how that was safely and compliantly done, don't do it! Because, where the CAR states "no person", the "person" would be the pilot!
I think you misunderstand my point. I'm not asking for help feeling anything. My point is that I have found a regulation, CAR 605.10 (1) (b), that appears to say that without an MEL I cannot defer maintenance on an item that appears on the manufacturer's equipment list as required. It appears to me that the equipment list for this aircraft supplied by the manufacturer says strobes and transponder are required, but that list is not in the limitations section so as you say, does not necessarily need to be followed, except that CAR 605.10 (1) (b) certainly seems to refer to it as required in order to defer maintenance.

So my question to you or anyone knowledgeable about these regulations is: Would you fly this aircraft without this equipment working and if the answer is yes, how did you decide 605.10 (1) (b) didn't apply?
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#15 Post by gwagen » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:40 pm

That looks more like a build sheet for the airplane.

Listing Standard equipment included with the airplane, optional equipment available at additional cost and Required equipment at additional cost, as in you must order this item at additional expense when purchasing the aircraft in order to buy it.

I don’t think it has anything to do with “this aircraft must have this equipment operational to be airworthy. “

I think you have found rules in search of a problem that doesn’t exist.

Easy answer. Call Kansas.
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#16 Post by torquey401 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:21 pm

I assume this is a G1000 equipped 172S.

The provided screenshot of the equipment list has a description for it.

Page 6-17 in the attachment:

Suffix letters are as follows:
R= Required items or equipment for FAA certification (14 CFR Part 23
or Part 91).
S= Standard equipment items.
O= Optional equipment items replacing required or standard items.
A= Optional equipment items which are in addition to required or
standard items.

http://aeroatlanta.com/docs/aero-atlant ... ii-poh.pdf

While the aircraft won't fall out of the sky, I think it would be technically un-airworthy. The G1000 system is a very integrated system.

But to each their own.
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#17 Post by photofly » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:12 pm

I think you’re correct. If it’s -R, the manufacturer has declared it “required” in order to be airworthy.You might not agree, but that’s what the paperwork says.

For the 172R, all the lights are -S, standard. Not required. So is the transponder.
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#18 Post by photofly » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:15 pm

Is it part of the published pre-flight checklist in that model to verify the strobes and anti-collision beacon are operational? checking the transponder works in a meaningful way is going to be tough.
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#19 Post by PilotDAR » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:54 pm

without an MEL I cannot defer maintenance on an item that appears on the manufacturer's equipment list as required.
I agree. If I found in the flight manual, or other original Cessna document that an item was "required", I would not fly with it U/S, without at least consulting a Cessna service center or TC. If the aircraft had to be ferried for maintenance, I'd get a flight permit, which, under the right conditions should be an easy do.

Unusual situation (at least for legacy GA aircraft), good question.
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#20 Post by ahramin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:35 pm

photofly wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:15 pm
Is it part of the published pre-flight checklist in that model to verify the strobes and anti-collision beacon are operational? checking the transponder works in a meaningful way is going to be tough.
No, no mention of lights in the pre-flight.
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#21 Post by photofly » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:48 pm

Well then unless you decide to test them, you could complete hundreds of day VFR flights and not know they were U/S.
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#22 Post by ahramin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:55 pm

True, but the same could be said for a failing exhaust valve, and I don't think any of us would defer that one.
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#23 Post by photofly » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:24 pm

The 172S from 1998 with steam gauges has the lighting and transponder as -S, too, as one might expect.

I’m going to guess that somewhere in the long list of parts of 14CFR23 that apply only to G1000 equipped 172S models, is a requirement for a transponder, and strobes. Hence they become required for airworthiness in that aircraft, without doubt.
Certification Basis (cont’d)
Additions for the Garmin G1000 Integrated Cockpit System (ICS) Only: Additions for the Garmin G1000 Integrated Cockpit System (ICS) Only:
14 CFR 23.303; 23.307; 23.601; 23.1163(a); 23.1367 and 23.1381 as amended by Amendment 23- N/C. 14 CFR 23.1589 as amended by Amendment 23-13. 14 CFR 23.771(a) as amended by Amendment 23-14. 14 CFR 23.607 and (Electrical System) 23.1309(a)(1)(2), (c) as amended by Amendment 23-17. 14 CFR 23.1301; 23.1327 and 23.1547(e) as amended by Amendment 23-20. 14 CFR 23.1501 and 23.1541(a)(1), (a)(2), (b)(1), (b)(2) as amended by Amendment 23-21. 14 CFR 23.603 and 23.605 as amended by Amendment 23-23. 14 CFR 23.1529 as amended by Amendment 23-26. 14 CFR 23.561(e); 23.1523; 23.1581(a)(2); and 23.1583(a), (c), (d), (f) as amended by Amendment 23-34. 14 CFR 23.301 as amended by Amendment 23-42. 14 CFR 23.1322; 23.1331 and 23.1357(a)(b)(c)(d) as amended by Amendment 23-43. 14 CFR 23.305; 23.773(a)(1), (a)(2); 23.1525 and 23.1549 as amended by Amendment 23-45. 14 CFR 23.1303(a)(b)(c)(f); 23.1309(a)(1)(i), (a)(1)(ii), (a)(2), (b)(1), (b)(2)(i), (b)(2)(ii), (b)(3),(b)(4)(i), (b)(4)(ii), (b)(4)(iii), (b)(4)(iv), (c)(1), (c)(2)(iii), (c)(3), (d), (e), (f)(1); 23.1311; 23.1321 (a)(c)(d)(e); 23.1323(a), (b)(1), (b)(2), (c); 23.1329 (g)(h); 23.1351(a)(1), (a)(2)(i), (b)(1)(iii), (b)(2)(3), (c)(4), (d)(1); 23.1353(a)(b)(c)(d)(e); 23.1359(c); 23.1361; 23.1365(a)(b)(d)(e)(f) and 23.1431(a)(b)(d)(e) as amended by Amendment 23-49. 14 CFR 23.1325(a), (b)(1), (b)(2)(i), (b)(3), (c)(d)(e); 23.1543(b)(c); 23.1545(a), (b)(1), (b)(2), (b)(3), (b)(4); 23.1553; 23.1555(a)(b); 23.1563(a) and 23.1567(a) as amended by Amendment 23-50. 14 CFR 23.777(a)(b); 23.955(a)(2); 23.1337(a)(1), (a)(2), (b)(1), (c) as amended by Amendment 23-51. 14 CFR 23.1305(a)(1), (a)(2), (a)(3), (b)(2), (b)(3)(i), (b)(4)(i), (b)(5), (b)(6)(i) as amended by Amendment 23-52. 14 CFR 23.901(a)(b) as amended by Amendment 23-53.
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#24 Post by photofly » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:07 pm

This document is somewhat relevant to lighting:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... -07-09.pdf
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Re: Unserviceable Equipment C172

#25 Post by ahramin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:13 pm

Interesting reading. What a gong show. There really should be a law against laws so complicated that the regulator makes mistakes. Something along the lines of if the FAA makes a mistake regarding their own rules on lights, no more rules on lights! EVER! Do what you want!
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