Can you see the windsock?

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Message
Author
pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3558
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Can you see the windsock?

#1 Post by pelmet » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:48 pm

CAR 301.06 (1) Except where the direction of the wind at an aerodrome can be determined by radio or other means such as smoke movement in the air or wind lines on water, the operator of the aerodrome shall install and maintain at the aerodrome a wind direction indicator that is
(a) of a conspicuous colour or colours;
(b) in the shape of a truncated cone;
(c) visible from an aircraft flying at an altitude of 300 m (1,000 feet) above the wind direction indicator; and
(d) illuminated when the aerodrome is used at night.
(2) When an aerodrome is closed permanently, the operator of the aerodrome shall immediately remove all of the wind direction indicators installed at the aerodrome.

From Aerodrome Standards and Recommended Practices, TP 312
The colour or colours should be so selected as to make the wind direction indicator clearly visible and understandable from a height of at least 300 m, having regard to background. Where practicable, a single colour, preferably white or orange, should be used.

From Canada’s AIM
(iii) If it is necessary for an aircraft to cross the airport before joining the circuit, it is recommended that the crossover be accomplished at least 500 ft above the circuit altitude.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Maynard
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 397
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:33 am

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#2 Post by Maynard » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:40 pm

Is there a point to this post? Or are you bored and just quoting information?
---------- ADS -----------
  
I guess I should write something here.

digits_
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1586
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#3 Post by digits_ » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:05 pm

Maynard wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:40 pm
Is there a point to this post? Or are you bored and just quoting information?
That you have to fly at 1500 AGL to see a windsock that is possibly only visible at 1000 AGL or below. Looks like an interesting find.
---------- ADS -----------
  

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2870
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#4 Post by CpnCrunch » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:00 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:05 pm
That you have to fly at 1500 AGL to see a windsock that is possibly only visible at 1000 AGL or below. Looks like an interesting find.
If you're joining the circuit, you're going to descend from 1500 to 1000ft above the airport.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3558
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#5 Post by pelmet » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:10 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:00 pm
digits_ wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:05 pm
That you have to fly at 1500 AGL to see a windsock that is possibly only visible at 1000 AGL or below. Looks like an interesting find.
If you're joining the circuit, you're going to descend from 1500 to 1000ft above the airport.
Thanks for the reply. What information do you use to determine your routing over the airport prior to your descent.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3558
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#6 Post by pelmet » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:17 pm

Maynard wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:40 pm
Is there a point to this post? Or are you bored and just quoting information?
Sometimes when I find something interesting, I copy and paste it. Others here seem to find it interesting based on the responses. And as you can see, it has generated an interesting thread....which is the point of the post.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by pelmet on Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2870
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#7 Post by CpnCrunch » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:39 pm

pelmet wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:10 pm
Thanks for the reply. What information do you use to determine your routing over the airport prior to your descent.
Good point. Quite a few of the airports I fly to have the circuit on one side of the airport, so you always cross at 1000ft and then turn left or right. Most of the others have an ATIS. Or there are other planes in the circuit. Failing that I'd probably overfly at 1500ft and if I can't see the windsock I'd just take an educated guess at the wind. No big deal doing a go-around if you end up with a tailwind on final.
---------- ADS -----------
  

aeroncasuperchief
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:54 pm

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#8 Post by aeroncasuperchief » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:48 pm

The regs are working against each other! If you want to conform to the circuit pattern in use , especially with a nordo mix, you need to determine the likely circuit pattern while you are out of the 1000 AE pattern ! My biggest concern when doing a legal non-standard full comms approach and landing into , say a gusty quartering tailwind ( for training ) I am EXPECTING Nordo traffic to conform to established standards to land into wind and therefore the risk of collision is increased! The Soo near miss spoke volumes about non-standard legal procedures without the attendant increased awareness of the heightened risk consequences !
---------- ADS -----------
  

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2870
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#9 Post by CpnCrunch » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:54 pm

Most of the time I find it's fairly easy to see the windsock from 1000 or 1500ft if there's any significant wind. If there's not much wind it can be more tricky to see, but in that case it usually doesn't matter which runway you use if nobody else is in the circuit.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
oldtimer
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2274
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:04 pm
Location: Calgary

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#10 Post by oldtimer » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:21 pm

1000 ft. ????
I thought it was 10,000 ft. OOPs Oh Well!
You can see it at night from 1500 ft. Look on the CFS and there is a wind sock symbol to show you where it is located. Look there.
Also compare GPS ground speed (if you can) with airspeed on final approach to tell if you are in a head wind or tail wind.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.

User avatar
youhavecontrol
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:17 am

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#11 Post by youhavecontrol » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:14 pm

That is a strange find in the Regs.. Luckily, we have an eye exam and should be able to see it pretty much the same at 1000' as 1500'. Still strange though that they would overlook that detail.

The awkward thing is when the windsock is a perfect crosswind, or totally dead, and you encounter someone who sucks at ATF procedures. I was surprised one time to see a Cessna on the opposite Final from me, who made no calls in the 10 minutes I was on frequency, must have missed my "over the field, checking wind", "Descending to cross mid-field and join Downwind of XX runway" "On Downwind XX"... and only replied to me when I called final, after I remarked that I had the opposing aircraft in sight and would break-off my approach. I don't even think they flew over the field at all.
---------- ADS -----------
  
"I found that Right Rudder you kept asking for."

Heliian
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1266
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:14 pm

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#12 Post by Heliian » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:24 am

They are assuming you have already chosen to cross the aerodrome and once you join circuit, you should see the sock.

Also, the requirements aren't just for strips. They include small fields and pads that helicopters would use or rivers for float ops. no circuit required.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3558
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#13 Post by pelmet » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:29 pm

oldtimer wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:21 pm
1000 ft. ????
I thought it was 10,000 ft. OOPs Oh Well!
You can see it at night from 1500 ft. Look on the CFS and there is a wind sock symbol to show you where it is located. Look there.
Also compare GPS ground speed (if you can) with airspeed on final approach to tell if you are in a head wind or tail wind.
I would suggest to anybody reading this to to use caution for this advice. While it can be useful in some circumstances(and did once lead to a change in direction for landing at an ice strip where bad wind info was given), it can also be quite misleading. I have been on final to a calm wind runway with groundspeed 15 knots faster than airspeed.

We did not go around and continued for landing as it was very appropriate to continue for landing. Anybody care to guess why?

I'll give one further piece of info.....the winds on final were probably calm as well.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Maynard
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 397
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:33 am

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#14 Post by Maynard » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:52 pm

pelmet wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:17 pm
Maynard wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:40 pm
Is there a point to this post? Or are you bored and just quoting information?
Sometimes when I find something interesting, I copy and paste it. Others here seem to find it interesting based on the responses. And as you can see, it has generated an interesting thread....which is the point of the post.
Thats fair, maybe next time expand on your thoughts rather than just quoting stuff?
---------- ADS -----------
  
I guess I should write something here.

pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3558
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#15 Post by pelmet » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:52 pm

Maynard wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:52 pm
pelmet wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:17 pm
Maynard wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:40 pm
Is there a point to this post? Or are you bored and just quoting information?
Sometimes when I find something interesting, I copy and paste it. Others here seem to find it interesting based on the responses. And as you can see, it has generated an interesting thread....which is the point of the post.
Thats fair, maybe next time expand on your thoughts rather than just quoting stuff?
There are many posts here by many people that are quotes from news articles, regs, etc. It appears that the way I initiated this thread bothers you. Too bad, you have added nothing and wasted posting space. Please take your poor attitude and leave the thread or better yet...the forum. Just quoting stuff(and it is useful stuff) is better than just whining and complaining.

As for why my groundspeed was 15 knots higher than the indicated airspeed. In that case the airfield was at 8500'. TAS was significantly higher than IAS. Which is why you can't always count on groundspeed from the GPS to show if you have a headwind or tailwind on approach.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Spinwmts
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#16 Post by Spinwmts » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:14 pm

pelmet wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:52 pm
As for why my groundspeed was 15 knots higher than the indicated airspeed. In that case the airfield was at 8500'. TAS was significantly higher than IAS. Which is why you can't always count on groundspeed from the GPS to show if you have a headwind or tailwind on approach.
Good Point. But you can always do a 360 watching the GPS (obviously not near the circuit)

Btw, I think this is a great topic! IM (somewhat limited)O as a <200TT pilot, I am so tempted to approach and enter the circuit wo the standard fly over if no one is talking and visibility is good etc, but I still stick to the regs. Would love to hear what others do. Theoretically you can bump into someone 1500' HAA also doing an over fly if your not keeping your eyes outside. I agree less chance of this happening then just barging into the circuit but entering into the circuit should always be done cautiously.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3558
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#17 Post by pelmet » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:10 pm

I have done quite a few straight-ins over the years when there is no known traffic around. Yes, I have used the GPS combined with an early morning/evening light wind on arrival, for convenience of saving time. Usually there is some smoke rising somewhere or water on lakes to confirm that winds are as expected.

Just use some common sense. I was once checking a guy out in a Twin Cessna and we were doing a flapless landing on a nice 5000 foot runway due to an issue with the aircraft. There were some short runways as well and while crossing overhead the airfield, he saw a taildragger for the short runway and all of a sudden changed his mind immediately and was going to follow the taildragger in order to conform with the other aircraft in the circuit. Strange. Just because there is an aircraft already in the circuit for one particular runway doesn't make it mandatory for everyone else if there are other issues such as performance.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#18 Post by rookiepilot » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:42 pm

The other day at our very busy, west GTA U/C AP someone blew right above the AP at circuit height, east to west, cruise speed, and continued on their merry way. Maybe even slightly below the circuit. Very stupid, not the first time I have seen someone showing off doing it, too.

Also happened to the exact opposite direction to everyone. including countless students, who enters our one sided circuit for the mid - downwind. Brilliant.

If your on this site and do this, stop being a prick. Very dangerous. No reason to do this as controlled airspace floor is well above the circuit.

Some People. :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
  

aeroncasuperchief
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:54 pm

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#19 Post by aeroncasuperchief » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:41 pm

Once I approached Mascouche Qc. from the dead side and crossed overhead and turned and descended to cross back over at the circuit altitude, I met 2 aircraft one on the left and one on the right VERY VERY close doing the same ! That led me to believe that this procedure is NOT always the safest!!! A turn and descending while looking at the sock,, After that I will join in other ways and will even do a straight in final when conditions permit!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mach1
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 468
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:04 am

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#20 Post by Mach1 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:26 pm

90 Nautical Miles out... "I have the windsock."

"It's about time."
---------- ADS -----------
  
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!

pdw
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1469
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:51 am
Location: A mile final 24 CYSN

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#21 Post by pdw » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:40 am

at least 500 ft above circuit altitude
1500 on flyover is same distance as 1000 ft mid downwind
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
dpm
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:08 pm

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#22 Post by dpm » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:03 pm

pdw wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:40 am
at least 500 ft above circuit altitude
1500 on flyover is same distance as 1000 ft mid downwind
Even less, I think, unless you fly very tight circuits.
---------- ADS -----------
  
@CYRO

pdw
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1469
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:51 am
Location: A mile final 24 CYSN

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#23 Post by pdw » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:39 pm

Basic math skills required.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
dpm
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:08 pm

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#24 Post by dpm » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:59 pm

pdw wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:39 pm
Basic math skills required.
Not sure if you're referring to me or you, but I like this kind of problem, so here goes. (Since we're dealing with a small area, let's assume the world is flat, to avoid spherical geometry.)

Flying almost directly over the windsock at 1,500 ft AGL, 200 ft offset to the side (so that you can look down at it) = sqrt(1,500² + 200²) = 1,513 ft slant distance

Flying abeam the windsock at 1,000 ft AGL on a downwind 1/2 statute mile parallel to the runway = sqrt(1,000² + 2,640²) = 2,823 ft slant distance

So you're actually a lot closer when you're overflying the windsock at 1,500 ft (my "even less" was understatement). The question is whether the regs are allowing for the horizontal distance in addition to vertical (I seriously doubt they thought it through that far).
---------- ADS -----------
  
@CYRO

digits_
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1586
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Can you see the windsock?

#25 Post by digits_ » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:21 pm

dpm wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:59 pm
let's assume the world is flat
oh-oh...
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”