Do you readback VFR clearances?

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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#101 Post by dpm » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:21 pm

photofly wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:15 pm
dpm wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:52 pm
photofly wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:30 am
How is ROGER or WILCO ambiguous in meaning? They are both clearly and precisely defined.
"Roger" or "Wilco" confirm that you heard or will comply with something, but not exactly what.
ROGER means you received the entire transmission. If you know you didn't receive part of a transmission, don't say ROGER - because that would be the wrong thing to say. Instead, ask for the transmission to be repeated. In part, if you wish. ("SAY AGAIN ALL AFTER ..." and if you want, "WORDS TWICE".)

WILCO means you will comply with all the instructions. When would you ever comply with only part of an ATCO's instructions, without explicitly making clear which instructions you're unable to follow? And if for some reason you're not going to comply with all the instructions you received, don't say "WILCO". That would be wrong. Because WILCO doesn't mean "I will comply with part of your instructions." This is not difficult stuff.

I'm still not seeing any ambiguity.
ATC: Fly heading 120

Pilot: [thinking she heard "fly heading 210"] Wilco.

That's why we read back critical stuff when we're IFR.
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#102 Post by photofly » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:32 pm

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Last edited by photofly on Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#103 Post by photofly » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:38 pm

Unfortunately, there’s no protocol that can entirely eliminate that possibility.

ATC: Fly heading 120
Pilot: [thinking she heard “fly heading 210”] “fly heading 210”
ATC: [thinking she heard “fly heading 120”] “ROGER”.

But I see what you’re saying. WILCO doesn’t resolve any doubt in the controller’s mind that the instruction that will be followed is what he or she intended.

I accept that WILCO misses an opportunity to detect an error. I read back instructions and clearances daily, and I can’t remember the last time I actually said WILCO. But you can’t tell me the meaning of WILCO is ambiguous. It’s defined clearly in CAP413. So is ROGER.
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#104 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:19 am

photofly wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:38 pm
Unfortunately, there’s no protocol that can entirely eliminate that possibility.

ATC: Fly heading 120
Pilot: [thinking she heard “fly heading 210”] “fly heading 210”
ATC: [thinking she heard “fly heading 120”] “ROGER”.

But I see what you’re saying. WILCO doesn’t resolve any doubt in the controller’s mind that the instruction that will be followed is what he or she intended.

I accept that WILCO misses an opportunity to detect an error. I read back instructions and clearances daily, and I can’t remember the last time I actually said WILCO. But you can’t tell me the meaning of WILCO is ambiguous. It’s defined clearly in CAP413. So is ROGER.

That is why I'd only use either for non critical acknowledgements, especially IFR, so a greater chance of errors being caught
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#105 Post by Big Pistons Forever » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:56 am

Personally the only time I ever use WILCO would be to accept an optional instruction.

For example.

ATC: ABC, keep the base in tight
Me: WILCO, ABC

If i don’t want to keep the base in tight I am going to say “unable” and will expect some new direction from the tower.

In general I will always try to help out ATC by doing what they ask for with these discretionary request but the decision is still mine.
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#106 Post by Say Again, Over! » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:58 am

From a terminal controller's perspective:

DO NOT double-click the mic to acknowledge a transmission I made. If you have something to acknowledge, use ROGER or WILCO. Note that any and all transmissions made on the frequency must be accompanied by your callsign.

"A-B-C, Roger" or "Roger, A-B-C"

The argument was made that a double-clik saves time on a busy frequency. In reality, you might just be cutting into my next transmission. If you have nothing to acknowledge, SAY NOTHING! Don't give your letters, don't say Roger, and DO NOT double-click the mic. If there is nothing to acknowledge, instead of trying to take as little time as possible on the frequency, just stay off it altogether!

A few examples:

- FABC, Trafic 12 o'clock, 2 miles, northbound, 2500"
- FABC, Roger

- FABC, cross the river at 2500 or below
- FABC, WILCO

- FABC, resume normal navigation, 4500 approved
- FABC, Roger

- Terminal, FABC, requesting 4500 to destination
- FABC, Terminal, that's approved
(nothing needs to be said. You made a request; it was approved)

There is no need to read back VFR instructions unless we request that you do. We might if we think that you misunderstood something and, in this case, the need to read-back will become self evident.

Whatever you do, if you make a request and the controller says "Approved", do not repeat the request. Such as:

- Terminal, FABC, requesting 2000 to the airport
- FABC, terminal, that's approved
- FABC, Roger, 2000 approved to the airport

If there is any doubt in your mind that we might not be on the same page, confirm openly.

Looking forward to talking to you all!! (but not all at once) :)
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#107 Post by AirFrame » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:04 am

photofly wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:06 am
So we seem to be at cross purposes. ROGER alone is ambiguous, but so is any transmission without your call sign. ROGER <call Sign> is correct and unambiguous.

If the only goal is to minimize redundancy, it’s unneeded.
Which is about what I was saying... Just responding <call sign> tells the controlling authority the same thing, in both ROGER and WILCO situations, as telling them ROGER <call sign> or WILCO <call sign>. ROGER says you received the entire transmission (when you might not have, and not realized it), and WILCO says you will comply with an instruction (that you might have mis-heard). Without a readback of the pertinent parts of the transmission or instruction, as a check that you really did hear correctly, ROGER and WILCO are just added words on frequency that neither identify you, nor provide confirmation of a complete communication exchange.

Which is why IFR traffic generally has to read back, and why VFR traffic that operates out of a busy commercial airport like YYJ also get in the habit of reading back, even when they aren't required to by the regs.
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#108 Post by AirFrame » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:07 am

Say Again, Over! wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:58 am
The argument was made that a double-clik saves time on a busy frequency. In reality, you might just be cutting into my next transmission.
In which case "FABC, Roger" will cut a lot longer into your next transmission. If you have said something that could be acknowledged, you shouldn't be making your next transmission until it's acknowledged.
If you have nothing to acknowledge, SAY NOTHING! Don't give your letters, don't say Roger, and DO NOT double-click the mic. If there is nothing to acknowledge, instead of trying to take as little time as possible on the frequency, just stay off it altogether!
I couldn't agree more.

Which airport do you operate out of?
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#109 Post by Say Again, Over! » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:23 pm

AirFrame wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:07 am
Say Again, Over! wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:58 am
The argument was made that a double-clik saves time on a busy frequency. In reality, you might just be cutting into my next transmission.
In which case "FABC, Roger" will cut a lot longer into your next transmission. If you have said something that could be acknowledged, you shouldn't be making your next transmission until it's acknowledged.

Which airport do you operate out of?
Agreed! I take it back. Just don't double-click! :)

I work CYOW and CYQB TCUs
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#110 Post by pelmet » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:44 pm

Say Again, Over! wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:23 pm
AirFrame wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:07 am
Say Again, Over! wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:58 am
The argument was made that a double-clik saves time on a busy frequency. In reality, you might just be cutting into my next transmission.
In which case "FABC, Roger" will cut a lot longer into your next transmission. If you have said something that could be acknowledged, you shouldn't be making your next transmission until it's acknowledged.

Which airport do you operate out of?
Agreed! I take it back. Just don't double-click! :)

I work CYOW and CYQB TCUs
Good...now we have that from the AIM and a controller. Next.
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#111 Post by rookiepilot » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:01 pm

Say Again, Over! wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:58 am
From a terminal controller's perspective:

There is no need to read back VFR instructions unless we request that you do. We might if we think that you misunderstood something and, in this case, the need to read-back will become self evident.
Don't mean any disrespect, but self evident seems a bit vague. it's clear in my experience, some TML controllers do want a brief read back, and I understand why.

And to that, I have to ask: Have you ever violated a VFR for missing an altitude restriction?

Cause for me, if I have the slightest doubt, especially away from home base where I know the usual restrictions, I'm reading back. Briefly.

It's my licence, my choice, and even the NavCan PDF I linked states I may read back safety critical information.
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#112 Post by photofly » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:36 pm

I think the point is you’re welcome to read back instructions for your own benefit, but this controller doesn’t want you read them back for his benefit.
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#113 Post by ahramin » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:38 pm

So yesterday I flew 20 minutes through YVR's Class C airspace while it was "restricted" by NOTAM, got taken right over YVR at 4500', and the entire route was as direct as I could imagine possible. Radio work required?

"YVR Terminal GABC"
They asked me to stand by, then to squawk ident and destination
"ABC Landing Boundary Bay"
Gave me a route along the North shore
"ABC"
Changed the route to overhead YVR and descend to 4500'"
"ABC"
Pointed out traffic
"ABC Traffic in sight"
Descend reference that traffic
"ABC"
Change frequency
"ABC Thank you"

And that was it. So yes, read back anything and everything that you want to, it's perfectly acceptable. But please keep in mind it isn't required.
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#114 Post by rookiepilot » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:19 pm

photofly wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:36 pm
I think the point is you’re welcome to read back instructions for your own benefit, but this controller doesn’t want you read them back for his benefit.
Couldn't agree more.

Context and situation is everything on that for me, is all I'm saying, and compared to A's example above, I might add 3-4 more words, total, like "descend 4500, and "direct YVR". Or, if I flew there a lot and that was a standard instruction, might not even repeat that. I dunno. I do try hard not to clog up the radio.

Let's say I was VFR near the DC restricted airspace, better believe I'll repeat headings there, cause consequences are rather severe -- :shock:
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#115 Post by Braun » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:50 am

As a terminal controller I expect a read back of all instructions and will confirm if I don’t receive one. I wouldn’t accept Wilco for a heading, altitude or speed instruction.

Also, if I say flying heading 120 and you read back 210 it becomes my mistake as we are responsible to catch bad read backs.
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#116 Post by dpm » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:50 pm

"heading one two zero—alpha bravo charlie" doesn't take much more airtime than "wilco—alpha bravo charlie" or "roger—alpha bravo charlie."

The problem comes with people not used to flying in terminal areas, where you'll get someone radio-panicking and rambling like "OK, yeah, we'll...I mean, alpha bravo charlie will fly the heading one two zero, one hundred and twenty degrees for now; any idea when we can turn a bit to the ... south, yes, to the south?"
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#117 Post by Big Pistons Forever » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:50 pm

dpm wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:50 pm
"heading one two zero—alpha bravo charlie" doesn't take much more airtime than "wilco—alpha bravo charlie" or "roger—alpha bravo charlie."
Exactly
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#118 Post by Beefitarian » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:59 am

Five pages in, is it too early to ask, "Any conflicting traffic please advise."?
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#119 Post by AirFrame » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:21 am

Beefitarian wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:59 am
Five pages in, is it too early to ask, "Any conflicting traffic please advise."?
[click] [click]
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Re: Do you readback VFR clearances?

#120 Post by Beefitarian » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:17 pm

Yuuup!
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