Chieftain Icing

[C.W.E.]

For sure the DC3 could fly with a lot of ice and the boots did help some.

One thing the DC3 could not fly very well with was wing contamination on the upper surfaces, especially hoar frost.

I did some flying in the Navajo and I recall you had to be aware of ice build up on the elevator balance horns if you were picking up a lot of ice.

[AppleOTP]

Thanks for the responses guys, as they say "No one will be old enough to make the same mistakes everyone else already has", so I thought I'd get input from drivers of the ho.

[Justjohn]

The ‘Ho is a tank in the ice. Notice how the boots keep the leading edges clean even during significant icing.

[AppleOTP]

Personal experience, John?

[Justjohn]

Yep, about ten years ago running around in the maritimes. That was about 15 mins exposure until we could get out of it. I hesitate to call it severe icing as the boots kept knocking it off the leading edges, but we were pretty anxious until we got clear of it.

Also brushed up on reading a GFA after that.

[Zaibatsu]

Also brushed up on reading a GFA after that.

That’s the biggest thing. It’s rarely the aircraft, it’s mostly the conditions. Someone flying through puff balls at relatively high OATs that put a lot of ice on the plane will probably think it’s pretty good as it sheds quick and melts or sublimates off in clear air. Or someone with a light and cream puff aircraft with a bit of reserve speed punches through a layer with relative ease. They’re going to have a good opinion of the aircrafts capabilities.

But if you’re loaded to the gills with a tired aircraft and facing a very thick layer of clear or getting those performance destroying hooks and fingers on the plane and you can’t climb out of it because you don’t have the performance, can’t descend out of it because of obstacle clearance or traffic, and can’t get into VMC laterally, or don’t know where the freezing levels or non-icing layers are because you didn’t print off the weather... the very bad opinion of your aircraft’s icing capabilities might be the last one you have.

Those photos would have been at the accident site of a Navajo in BC. It’s nearly eaten much more capable aircraft.

[munzil]

Anyone here familiar with Chieftain Ground Anti and Deice programs? Is the chieftain certified to be sprayed? If so is there any literature out there that would give some guidance on policies and procedures?

many thanks!

[mbav8r]

Honestly though, don’t take this the wrong way, if you don’t know, this the company you work for has failed you. I don’t know of any aircraft specifically “certified to be sprayed”, none are certified to fly with a contaminated wing. It’s been a while, so I don’t recall if the Vr of a Navajo is above 100 knots, that will determine what fluid to use. The other thing, to do it properly requires a trained person, to do it bush style is like most of us did, requires a wing and a prayer!
https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/public ... -fluids-15
Summary - Chapter 3

Frozen contaminants are most often removed in commercial operations by using Freezing Point Depressant (FPD) fluids.

It is the heat contained by the Type l (deice) fluid and hydraulic forces (high pressure spray equipment) that removes the frozen contaminants.

It is imperative that take-off not be attempted on any aircraft unless the PIC has determined that all critical surfaces of the aircraft are free of frost, ice or snow contamination.

Aircraft deicing/anti-icing fluids consist of four types. They are Type I, II, III, and IV.

Deicing fluids are typically ethylene glycol, diethylene glycol or propylene glycol based fluids containing water, corrosion inhibitors, wetting agents and dye.

Anti-icing fluids are similar in composition except that they also contain polymeric thickeners. They are formulated to prevent formation of unabsorbed frozen contamination for a longer period of time than deicing fluids; however, the protection is still for a limited period of time.

The operator is ultimately responsible for ensuring that only qualified fluids are used.

If the colour of the fluid being applied to the aircraft is NOT the colour anticipated, the procedure should be stopped and the situation investigated.

Type I fluids are used for deicing or anti-icing, but provide very limited anti-icing protection.

Type II fluids are designed to remain on the wings of an aircraft during ground operations, thereby providing anti-icing protection. This fluid should be used on aircraft with rotation speeds (Vr) above 100 knots, unless otherwise specified by the aircraft manufacturer.

Type III fluids are designed for aircraft that have a shorter time to rotation and this should make it acceptable for some aircraft that have a Vr of less than 100 knots unless otherwise specified by the aircraft manufacturer.

Type IV anti-icing fluids meet the same fluid specifications as the Type II fluids and have a significantly longer HOT.

The LOUT for a given fluid is the higher of:
The lowest temperature at which the fluid meets the aerodynamic acceptance test for a given aircraft type, or

The actual freezing point of the fluid plus its freezing point buffer of 10°C, for a Type I fluid, and 7°C for a Type II or IV fluid.
Some Type II or IV fluid residue may remain throughout the flight and this residue should be cleaned periodically. It is suggested that the use of heated Type I fluid/water high pressure washing may alleviate the occurrence of fluid dryout

[eyebrow737]

Honestly though, don’t take this the wrong way, if you don’t know, this the company you work for has failed you. I don’t know of any aircraft specifically “certified to be sprayed”,

Many aircraft are not certified to be sprayed. This means that the deicing liquid and anti icing liquid has not been tested on the aircraft and has not been certified to cause excess wear and tear to the airframe and it's parts or change it's aerodynamic characteristics. This is either done by the regulatory authority or by the manufacturer or a tandem of both.

So yes - aircraft to get certified to be sprayed with any of the types of liquids or even down to the manufacturer of the liquid.

Each aircraft when certified will also get policies and procedures as to how this is done, what kind of liquids can be used, in what conditions and where on the aircraft it can or cannot be sprayed.

As to a small plane like that - I have no idea munzil.

[ahramin]

Many aircraft are not certified to be sprayed. This means that the deicing liquid and anti icing liquid has not been tested on the aircraft and has not been certified to cause excess wear and tear to the airframe and it's parts or change it's aerodynamic characteristics.

Where are the Standards for this certification basis please? 525 appears to be mute on the subject.

[mbav8r]

Honestly though, don’t take this the wrong way, if you don’t know, this the company you work for has failed you. I don’t know of any aircraft specifically “certified to be sprayed”,

Many aircraft are not certified to be sprayed. This means that the deicing liquid and anti icing liquid has not been tested on the aircraft and has not been certified to cause excess wear and tear to the airframe and it's parts or change it's aerodynamic characteristics. This is either done by the regulatory authority or by the manufacturer or a tandem of both.

So yes - aircraft to get certified to be sprayed with any of the types of liquids or even down to the manufacturer of the liquid.

Each aircraft when certified will also get policies and procedures as to how this is done, what kind of liquids can be used, in what conditions and where on the aircraft it can or cannot be sprayed.

As to a small plane like that - I have no idea munzil.

Ok, fair enough, I’ve never seen the certified for anti ice/de ice stamp in any manuals or paperwork. I’ve been a Chief Pilot and Operations manager, PRM, including for start up airlines(twice). The only thing that was required in the ops manual was the plan(AGIP) for de ice, not even required for 702-704, just recommended. In the manual, TP14052 it refers to aircraft specific requirements a couple times but that’s it.
So, I apparently misunderstood the question as can I spray a Navajo, what choice is there? You either have a clean wing or you don’t and a hangar is not usually an option at most airports they fly to.

[munzil]

Ok, fair enough, I’ve never seen the certified for anti ice/de ice stamp in any manuals or paperwork. I’ve been a Chief Pilot and Operations manager, PRM, including for start up airlines(twice). The only thing that was required in the ops manual was the plan(AGIP) for de ice, not even required for 702-704, just recommended. In the manual, TP14052 it refers to aircraft specific requirements a couple times but that’s it.
So, I apparently misunderstood the question as can I spray a Navajo, what choice is there? You either have a clean wing or you don’t and a hangar is not usually an option at most airports they fly to.

Thanks mbav8r - I'm a heavy pilot, so very familiar with deicing procedures and fluids etc. I have also been a DFO though not in canada so not that familiar with the regulations around deicing small planes. I'm helping a company get a PA31 certified for Part 135 - 703 you guys call it here in canada and was looking for aircraft specific procedures for the chieftain for the Ground icing program manuals.

I'm sure it can be sprayed but the question is where on the aircraft, do the engines need to be stopped etc. Did you in your time handle a PA-31?

" not even required for 702-704, just recommended."

I'm assuming you saying that if the aircraft is not to be used in icing conditions then the plan is not required? per 622.11

"In order to operate an aircraft under icing conditions in accordance with the requirements of CAR Section 602.11, an operator must have a program as specified in these standards and the dispatch and take-off of the aircraft shall comply with that program. These Ground Icing Operations Standards specify the program elements, for both operations and training, that shall be addressed in an operator's Ground Icing Operations Program and described in the appropriate operator's manuals"

[mbav8r]

Ok, fair enough, I’ve never seen the certified for anti ice/de ice stamp in any manuals or paperwork. I’ve been a Chief Pilot and Operations manager, PRM, including for start up airlines(twice). The only thing that was required in the ops manual was the plan(AGIP) for de ice, not even required for 702-704, just recommended. In the manual, TP14052 it refers to aircraft specific requirements a couple times but that’s it.
So, I apparently misunderstood the question as can I spray a Navajo, what choice is there? You either have a clean wing or you don’t and a hangar is not usually an option at most airports they fly to.

Thanks mbav8r - I'm a heavy pilot, so very familiar with deicing procedures and fluids etc. I have also been a DFO though not in canada so not that familiar with the regulations around deicing small planes. I'm helping a company get a PA31 certified for Part 135 - 703 you guys call it here in canada and was looking for aircraft specific procedures for the chieftain for the Ground icing program manuals.

I'm sure it can be sprayed but the question is where on the aircraft, do the engines need to be stopped etc. Did you in your time handle a PA-31?

" not even required for 702-704, just recommended."

I'm assuming you saying that if the aircraft is not to be used in icing conditions then the plan is not required? per 622.11

"In order to operate an aircraft under icing conditions in accordance with the requirements of CAR Section 602.11, an operator must have a program as specified in these standards and the dispatch and take-off of the aircraft shall comply with that program. These Ground Icing Operations Standards specify the program elements, for both operations and training, that shall be addressed in an operator's Ground Icing Operations Program and described in the appropriate operator's manuals"

Munzil,
Yes, a couple operations with the ho however neither had an approved plan and all the de icing was done by the pilots with engines off, like I said a wing and a prayer. I would imagine it would be done engines off but I’m guessing.
That being said it is not a requirement for 703,

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/public ... 052#toc-21

“Air operators conducting operations under CAR 702 (Aerial Work), 703 (Air Taxi) and 704 (Commuter Operation) and foreign air operators operating in Canada are not specifically required by regulation to have an AGIP. However, they are strongly encouraged to institute such a program. The rational for instituting an AGIP for these operators is that they must address procedures for dealing with ground icing operations in any case. The AGIP provides a structured approach for addressing ground icing operations.”

[munzil]

Yes, a couple operations with the ho however neither had an approved plan and all the de icing was done by the pilots with engines off, like I said a wing and a prayer. I would imagine it would be done engines off but I’m guessing.
That being said it is not a requirement for 703,

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/public ... 052#toc-21

“Air operators conducting operations under CAR 702 (Aerial Work), 703 (Air Taxi) and 704 (Commuter Operation) and foreign air operators operating in Canada are not specifically required by regulation to have an AGIP. However, they are strongly encouraged to institute such a program. The rational for instituting an AGIP for these operators is that they must address procedures for dealing with ground icing operations in any case. The AGIP provides a structured approach for addressing ground icing operations.”

Much appreciated mbav8r. Very helpful - I missed that.

[munzil]

Honestly though, don’t take this the wrong way, if you don’t know, this the company you work for has failed you. I don’t know of any aircraft specifically “certified to be sprayed”,

Many aircraft are not certified to be sprayed. This means that the deicing liquid and anti icing liquid has not been tested on the aircraft and has not been certified to cause excess wear and tear to the airframe and it's parts or change it's aerodynamic characteristics. This is either done by the regulatory authority or by the manufacturer or a tandem of both.

So yes - aircraft to get certified to be sprayed with any of the types of liquids or even down to the manufacturer of the liquid.

Each aircraft when certified will also get policies and procedures as to how this is done, what kind of liquids can be used, in what conditions and where on the aircraft it can or cannot be sprayed.

As to a small plane like that - I have no idea munzil.

Ok, fair enough, I’ve never seen the certified for anti ice/de ice stamp in any manuals or paperwork. I’ve been a Chief Pilot and Operations manager, PRM, including for start up airlines(twice). The only thing that was required in the ops manual was the plan(AGIP) for de ice, not even required for 702-704, just recommended. In the manual, TP14052 it refers to aircraft specific requirements a couple times but that’s it.
So, I apparently misunderstood the question as can I spray a Navajo, what choice is there? You either have a clean wing or you don’t and a hangar is not usually an option at most airports they fly to.

mbav8r. official response from transport:

"I already have the confirmation of the information I got this morning from our 703 expert :
If Piper did not approve officially into the PA31 POH/AFM the use of de-icing fluids, you cannot use it at all.
It is the position of TC, FAA and also a good expert on this matter, the NASA. Those fluids could damage the plane and affect the takeoff properties because of the too slow rotation speed."

with the gentlest of rubs "Honestly though, don’t take this the wrong way, if you don’t know, this the company you work for has failed you."...

[matt foley]

Tried to out climb the icing one northern prairie night. Dragged the PA31-350 to 11,000 before she said "No sopa para ti!!". Being single pilot we were probably 1000lbs under gross with fullish fuel, one walk on patient, a cop and a nurse. Departure airport was at mins with only a NDB to circling due winds and having no deicing facility I knew it was a one way trip until spring...ok the next day but still. By the time we got it into the hangar, so maybe 30 minutes of flight max, the ice was halfway back covering the nose baggage door requiring a fair melting before the RCMP could get his gun and pepper spray out.

The point is I have hauled a hell of a lot of ice and the boots, was there an "automatic" setting?, handled it well and I have never waited for build up. Usually just give them a hit whenever ice is banging off the fuselage via the props. That being said I fly the airplane differently when it's iced up hence why a lot of airplanes recalibrate your AOA, V Speeds , stick shaker etc when the wing ice is activated.

MF

[Gear Jerker]

Flew em for 4 years. My overall experience is that they were good in ice - for a piston twin. It was only on the rare really bad day that I had to really change my plans because of ice. The worst would have been flying at the MOCA over Vancouver Island.

Blow the boots as early as you like. If the boots are in good shape, waiting won't make it any better.