St. Catharines Flying Club or Brampton Flight Center

[pdw]

I would not be flying a 172 into a yellow radar return weather system under any conditions!

Comparing progress of two tracks on something like flightaware between two aircraft would subject the info to the typical delay (5min?) ... so not necessarily yellow on their data yet for that location 5-10 min before the accident sequence coordinates. (ie Which data source would have been the choice ?)

[PilotDAR]

so not necessarily yellow on their data yet for that location 5-10 min before the accident sequence coordinates.

I don't buy it. A well trained pilot would not enter conditions in a 172, which their peers would agree were dangerous 5-10 minutes later. Unforgiving weather does not pop up that quickly! Somehow, in the age before flat screens and internet weather information, we were commonly able to keep ourselves VMC based on hours old weather forecast and report information, and the occasional turn back. Why not now? Is there a degradation in pilot training and decision making since those days?

[rookiepilot]

Bottom line as well -- weather and night are a deadly mix, and inexperienced pilots will keep dying when that risk is disrespected, as has happened on many occasions in the past. You cannot visually assess buildups and cells well at night.

[gwagen]

...Are you telling me this was a practice flight for the instructor? I wonder if his passengers knew he was practicing something for his benefit, and not for theirs. How nice for them. Or not, as it turned out.

The man was a professional instructor, working for a professional flight school....

I guess I always thought that the purpose of the Class IV being under supervision was that he didn't pull anything like charging his students for stuff that he wanted to do for fun, which I agree seems like it might be the case here.

I perhaps have not been expressing my objections well - what I really object to with laying the blame for the accident entirely at the feet of the school, is that it can be perceived as taking responsibility off the shoulders of Class IV flight instructors to act like responsible pilots/adults. I left your quote about being professional in to emphasize that point. If they knew he was going to do something unsafe then yes, I agree they should do something about it. Given that a commercial pilot can walk in and request a rental and then take it away for a weekend wherever, based on him being licensed and presumably a responsible pilot, I don't see where it makes sense that a school should not be able to trust their instructors to at least act similarly. If they knew that he did unsafe things, then they are culpable if they keep him on. Also, they should be monitoring his students' progress and ensure that he is providing good service.

If they had any notion whatsoever that he would be endangering his students, then yes, they have an obligation to those students. I think my bias in this regard is due to the currently popular notion that "It's not my fault, the _____ should have told me/stopped me/protected me...." and the litigation that tends to follow. It's not my fault that I got hurt climbing that tower, they should have stopped me from doing it... it's not my fault my I got washed out to sea standing on the black rocks - I didn't read the signs so you should have put up a fence...it's not my fault I burned myself on the coffee - they didn't tell me it was hot....

No one likes to blame someone who paid with their life for poor judgement, but you also can't just blame the nearest entity, either. Maybe you're right and they knew he was unsafe or that he tended to push the limits, etc - if so, they should indeed have the sky fall on them and fall on them hard. But if instead they believed he was going on a cross country that the students requested and would exercise sound judgement in doing so, everything has to be considered before assessing blame/punishment.

I don’t agree, this wasn’t a flight of one aircraft. This wasn’t the poor choice of just one instructor. They were a group of aircraft flying in the same weather and making the same poor choices.

Luckily just one aircraft paid the ultimate price.

This clearly indicates a culture of risk taking and disregard for the inherent dangers of flying at this school.

That said the instructor in the accident airplane was PIC and with that was responsible for the lives on board, the lives on the ground and the aircraft. He failed to fulfill his obligations as a pilot.

Clearly their has been a failure in his instruction. He had not had the dangers of flight properly instilled within him.

His instructors let him down and even if they tried their best to instill the respect and knowledge he needed, they failed to recognize that their student was not capable of truly comprehending the risks.

The blame lays at many feet in this accident.

However the buck stops at the Chief Flight Instructor, he should have never allowed that flight off the ground in the first place.

[photofly]

...Are you telling me this was a practice flight for the instructor? I wonder if his passengers knew he was practicing something for his benefit, and not for theirs. How nice for them. Or not, as it turned out.

The man was a professional instructor, working for a professional flight school....

I guess I always thought that the purpose of the Class IV being under supervision was that he didn't pull anything like charging his students for stuff that he wanted to do for fun, which I agree seems like it might be the case here.

I perhaps have not been expressing my objections well - what I really object to with laying the blame for the accident entirely at the feet of the school, is that it can be perceived as taking responsibility off the shoulders of Class IV flight instructors

He’s dead. He’s now untouchable. Any criticism that otherwise would attach to that young man is now expunged. If he wasn’t a saint then, he sure is now.

If they knew he was going to do something unsafe then yes, I agree they should do something about it.

1. It was explicitly, legally, definitely, the school’s job to know what he was planning to do, in detail, and to approve or forbid it. That’s the meaning of “supervision” and “operational control”. It’s a gross dereliction of duty to give a class IV instructor the keys to an aircraft and not know the details of each and every flight he or she makes. How can you possibly not understand that?

2. And, even without the benefit of hindsight, what he was going to do was palpably stupid, unthinkable, dangerous, dumb, idiotic, crazy, how many more words do we need?

Given those two facts - HOW CAN IT POSSIBLY NOT BE THE SCHOOLS FAULT!!!?

[rookiepilot]

But if instead they believed he was going on a cross country that the students requested and would exercise sound judgement in doing so, everything has to be considered before assessing blame/punishment.

This may be piling on, but the above statement is simply blind FTU defending. Maybe it's my advancing years, but young people needlessly dying rather upsets me, HiFly.

This was not "a cross country the students requested". This was well reported, by the school themselves, this was a regular event initiated, organized and facilitated by the school. They are therefore completely responsible in my view.

I am really curious if the slightest bit of pressure was exerted by the school to get those aircraft back to base in a timely manner.

[C.W.E.]

We know that some TC inspectors read this tread especially when it is something as high profile as this subject.

Like many others here it is my opinion the school did not have operational control over their employee and their property.

What do you T.C. inspectors have to say about this, am I wrong?

. ., my real name.

[HiFlyChick]

...This was not "a cross country the students requested". This was well reported, by the school themselves, this was a regular event initiated, organized and facilitated by the school. They are therefore completely responsible in my view....

That's a good point, Rookie, and you're right, regardless of the circumstances, it was a tragedy that the three young men died. I hope that the FTU did indeed make changes that would hopefully help prevent this in the future. I also hope that other will not give in to get-home-itis. I see in the latest ASL that there is a new GA safety group that sees TC and COPA cooperating - it'd be great if they were to bring back the old Pilot Decision Making (PDM) seminars that let participants analyze their own weaknesses so they could be aware and not fall victim to them.

[Aviatard]

1. It was explicitly, legally, definitely, the school’s job to know what he was planning to do, in detail, and to approve or forbid it. That’s the meaning of “supervision” and “operational control”. It’s a gross dereliction of duty to give a class IV instructor the keys to an aircraft and not know the details of each and every flight he or she makes. How can you possibly not understand that?

2. And, even without the benefit of hindsight, what he was going to do was palpably stupid, unthinkable, dangerous, dumb, idiotic, crazy, how many more words do we need?

Given those two facts - HOW CAN IT POSSIBLY NOT BE THE SCHOOLS FAULT!!!?

I don't disagree that the CARS can or should be interpreted this way. Even at your school, Mister Fly, there are too many flights for the CFI to be able to know the details of each and every flight that takes place. How is this even possible to achieve?

[photofly]

there are too many flights for the CFI to be able to know the details of each and every flight that takes place.

If a flight school schedules such a colossal number of five-aircraft weekend trips to Florida piloted by Class IV flight instructors that the CFI doesn't have time to exercise effective oversight, then there are two options:

1. Employ sufficient assistant CFI's so that effective oversight becomes possible, OR
2. Don't let class IV flight instructors pilot aircraft on weekend trips to Florida.

Neither of those options needs much imagination to think of; and option 2 is even cost-free. Personally I have a strong preference for option 2.

As I said in the other thread, I don't think weekend trips to Florida belong in a PPL syllabus at all; there's very little loggable instruction towards the licensing requirement that can be undertaken on such a trip. If it's done for the benefit of "experience" then it can wait until those who want the experience already have a PPL.

[PilotDAR]

Yes, without requoting many valid statements here, if there are so many long distance, or otherwise unusual flights that the CFI can't keep track, that person must enlist competent help, or start saying "no". If the CFI is only vaguely aware of the details of five class 4 instructors in the circuit on a nice day, that's probably okay. If the new team want to plan an extended cross country, that could be planned enough in advance, that the CFI could have most of the details understood, leaving only the last minute details (weather) to be filled in as planned.

I remember as a new pilot at Brampton many decades ago, planning to take the Cardinal to the east coast for fun. I planned the trip well, discussed it with the CFI, and the trip was approved with guidance and advice. With decades of hindsight, I wonder how I survived all the very long distance trips I flew, I would be reluctant to attempt some of them again.

So, I think that a vital element of a good training environment is mentoring beyond the minimums for the licensing requirements. Mentoring is probably the opposite of letting adventures happen with poor supervision. I am not confident that the majority of class 4 instructors have, themselves, the experience to mentor for big adventure flying. Photofly has presented what I think are very valid discussion points in this context.

[pdw]

Yes, without requoting many valid stateI remember as a new pilot at Brampton many decades ago, planning to take the Cardinal to the east coast for fun. I planned the trip well, discussed it with the CFI, and the trip was planned with guidance and advice.

Ok if Brett is still searching, how would they (or any other school) have equipped a pilot (training wise) to resist "get home itis" and accept extra personal costs of waiting out the unexpected ?

[pdw]

Hope we haven't scared Brett away from flying forever ...

[photofly]

Yes, without requoting many valid stateI remember as a new pilot at Brampton many decades ago, planning to take the Cardinal to the east coast for fun. I planned the trip well, discussed it with the CFI, and the trip was planned with guidance and advice.

Ok if Brett is still searching, how would they (or any other school) have equipped a pilot (training wise) to resist "get home itis" and accept extra personal costs of waiting out the unexpected ?

Lead by example.

1. Don’t schedule the instructor for any flights on the Monday
2. Don’t schedule the aircraft for any flights on the Monday
3. Don’t let the passengers travel in the expectation of being home on Monday. If that’s not acceptable in advance, they don’t travel.
4. Tell the instructor and the passengers that if they need to stay an extra night for weather, the flight school will fund a cheap hotel for them
5. If that’s not all acceptable to the flight school, the trip doesn’t go ahead.

It’s really NOT difficult. Nobody flies from Ontario for a weekend in Florida in October in a Piper Warrior if they can’t afford either to leave the airplane and fly back commercial and rescue the plane later, or stay a few extra unscheduled days. That applies both to people who own and fly their own small planes, and to flight schools that tout a trip to Florida as a good idea to their students.

Weather doesn’t distinguish between the two, and flight school personnel don’t have superhuman piloting skills that let them make trips with any kind of guaranteed schedule. When they try, the results are too awful.

[rookiepilot]

1. Don’t schedule the instructor for any flights on the Monday
2. Don’t schedule the aircraft for any flights on the Monday
3. Don’t let the passengers travel in the expectation of being home on Monday. If that’s not acceptable in advance, they don’t travel.
4. Tell the instructor and the passengers that if they need to stay an extra night for weather, the flight school will fund a cheap hotel for them
5. If that’s not all acceptable to the flight school, the trip doesn’t go ahead.

That is not happening and you know it.

These are profit seeking enterprises, and there will be pressure to return the AC.

[photofly]

That is not happening and you know it.

Most (profit-seeking) flight schools DON'T schedule weekends away; I'm sure one reason is that they know there's a signifcant risk of not getting the airplane back in time.

However the St. Catharine's flying club is a member's club and therefore a not-for-profit corporation, so it should be easier for that organization.

[PilotDAR]

how would they (or any other school) have equipped a pilot (training wise) to resist "get home itis" and accept extra personal costs of waiting out the unexpected ?

This is pretty important training, and pilot decision making. If you are going to take a plane far, you may expect additional costs resulting from unexpected delay. Perhaps not weather, but airworthiness - would that pilot fly home a defective plane because of "get home itis"? It's the same decision making: The planned trip contains the required elements for safe completion, or that is in doubt. If in doubt, the trip is much less worthy of attempt. Turning around is still an option. Do flying schools demand that every attempt at a landing be completed? Nope, if the pilot judges that the landing cannot be completed safely, go around. 'Same thing for the trip, if you can't see how the safe completion is going to happen, abort!

In my considered opinion, pilot decision making, and the base experience which new pilots have upon which to base that experience are declining. The demand for a VFR pilot to really visualize and live their planned route and progress have been eroded by technology. The magenta line, and convenient numbers on the corners of the screen, are removing the vital need for the pilot to live what they are flying - they can delegate those pedestrian tasks to technology. Gee, what else can be delegated to tech? Look there's a gap between those two cells, I can fly between them! Maybe not, and at night, the choices are alarmingly fewer.

Pilots must be taught, and reinforced that the 0.025" thick aluminum aircraft skin separating their pink body from the cruel elements is really not very much. Their sense of invincibility because they can defy gravity is false. They remain wholly responsible for considering all aspects of the safe completion of the flight, and executing them. Several aviation departments with whom I have flown, produce a written risk analysis for EVERY flight, and the record is left with dispatch to document the risk analysis accomplished.

And, getting home late: I used to fly friends down to North Carolina many weekends in the 310. One the first occasion when I, as PIC decided that that very same route was not safe for a day return flight in the well equipped 310, I declared that we were staying over an extra day. Daughter had accompanied us, and was required to be returned in accordance with an access agreement Sunday evening - dad was sweating an argument with his ex. So I phoned the ex: M'am, I'm the pilot responsible for the safe return of your daughter, to assure the greatest safety for her, I'll return her to YYZ on Monday, rather than Sunday, this is not your ex playing a game, it's me making a decision in the interest of safety - no problem - smart people understand.

Pilots must exercise their responsibility in assuring a safe flight, and avoiding unsafe circumstances, this is part of training, and by doing it, they reinforce that it works. Succumbing to to get home itis is a weak excuse, and demonstrate inadequate character.

[rookiepilot]

PilotDar,

IMO I agree with you. Not only is PDM not adequately taught, many flight instructors themselves are not taught nor understand these principles to an acceptable level. At least that I've met.

IMO Flight Schools have assumed most pilots are training for a career position, and PDM will be picked up later as part of the mentoring process as a future FO -- a deferral of training responsibility I disagree with.

[HiFlyChick]

Excellent post, PilotDAR - technology is wonderful and a great aid to decision making, but can also be a great hindrance to learning.

The question of combating get-home-itis is a good one, because I remember first encountering it in a C172 with the ink not yet dry on my PPL, and it was still happening many years and many thousands of hours later as an experienced Navajo driver. In both cases, I had passengers growling at me about how they had to get home NOW - the first group for work and the second group for commercial flights. In thinking back, how I recall my flying club trained for that was PDM seminars, where we explicitly discussed the problem, including with accident data about people who let their pax or some other outside influence push them.

Which brings me to another point, and it's a very import one, so I'll emphasize it below:

***************************************** IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ: **************************

As I read through these posts, especially my own, it hit me that while we, as pilots, are discussing safety and accident details and decisions, behind it all are several grieving families, and a whole lot of extended family and friends who are still deeply saddened by their loved ones' passing. To those folks, possibly some of whom are here reading (which is why I'm posting this obviously) - I am sorry. I'm sorry when I get so involved in the accident analysis that I forget your grief. I'm sorry if our discussion... if my discussion...seems callous and uncaring. I don't mean it to be - we all want to learn what went wrong in any situation to prevent it from happening again. It is our clumsy attempt to bring some small good from your tremendous loss

I think I have forgotten that there could be loved ones of those young men here when I discussed their actions, and I want to say that you have my condolences and my apologies

[photofly]

I really hope the families are asking the flight school what they’ve changed about their operations.

The biggest insult to those grieving I’ve ever read has to be initial response of “this is one of those things that happens in flight training”.

The Toronto Sun reported Tawfig (the pilot/instructor) earned his instructor qualification earlier that year. The instrument-rated pilot had about 400 hours under his belt. This is what the spokesman for the club said:

“He was well-qualified to do this ... We all know intellectually that anything like flying, driving or boating carries a certain amount of risk. You can only manage it, you can’t eliminate it,”

and

“It’s tragic. People will say, well why did it happen? We don’t know. We may never know ... Everybody would like to have an answer.”