First Job

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For a first Pilot job, where would the best start be?

Poll ended at Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:25 am

Flight Instructor
18
22%
Bush Flying
45
55%
Ramp (Pilot in waiting 3-12 months)
19
23%
 
Total votes: 82

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telex
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Re: First Job

Post by telex »

square wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:39 am Dude, do not speak to him that way
Thanks, DUDE!

[youtube]https://youtu.be/HxUWrHTB3fQ
[/youtube]
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Re: First Job

Post by square »

LOL, yeah fair enough
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Re: First Job

Post by square »

telex wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:16 am
square wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:39 am Dude, do not speak to him that way
Thanks, DUDE!

[youtube]https://youtu.be/HxUWrHTB3fQ
[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMt7C3COiVM
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B208
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Re: First Job

Post by B208 »

Rockie wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:16 pm Your problem is you think if a pilot hasn’t done what you’ve done they’re a worse pilot than you are.
There’s a world of flying experience you don’t know squat about either despite your century and a half flying antiquated airplanes.
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Pot: "Yeah?"
Kettle: "You're black."

As for the OP; Pick a job that you think you will enjoy and aim for it, just be flexible about the path that gets you there. Every 'stepping stone' job will teach you new things and give you new experiences.

I came up through the instructing route and loved it (I like to teach people and I get a real sense of satisfaction from seeing my students succeed). If I could of found an instructing job that paid ~100K/year I would have happily stuck with it. Sadly, I couldn't so now I fly automated from paved-ILS-served runway to paved-ILS-served runway. It's not the most challenging or fun flying, but it beats a real job. I had fun getting where I am, and I'm mostly happy where I am. My advice to you is to figure out where you want to be and enjoy the road that takes you there.

Also, you should come visit the site that can't be named. There's a lot of experience and different perspectives there.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: First Job

Post by goingnowherefast »

confusedalot wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:41 pmAnd, why are the tech savvy people putting down the older generation in the first place? Are the tech savvy somehow naturally superior? Perhaps the real heros are the old people who actually developed and implemented the new tech, the newbies are merely users of the equipment and had nothing to do with advancement.
We're not. The "tech savvy" people are trying to defend themselves against those who don't see the need for new tech and label those who use it as inferior.
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Re: First Job

Post by valleyboy »

"Tech savvy" has nothing to do with age. I'm actually surprised of the number of 20 something pilots who have no "tech savvy" - they are "users" . Most people fall into this category. Turn it on and it spits out what you want but have no idea on how it works or why. To the latest generation even computers are not owned or used nor are they understood. Tablets are moving away from popularity as well. I have no idea how anyone can work off a mobile screen but they do. "Technology" has dumbed down aviation and become a tool and now "technology" (smart everything) is dumbing down itself. I wonder where this will all be in 50 years. Implants I guess.
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shimmydampner
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Re: First Job

Post by shimmydampner »

Rockie wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:09 pm

Curious comment. Have you never done a visual? Ever clicked off the autopilot because what you were doing was far too dynamic to keep up with on the MCP? Ever gotten rid of the AP because...well...it's just easier? Ever got caught with your pants down around your ankles because you were a FMS drone instead of the person supposed to be in control? Ever scratched your head wondering what the airplane was doing when you not only should have known, but should have anticipated? Have you ever, even once in your career as a FMS drone, intervened in the FMS programming by using direct modes on the MCP or even hand flew.


Really, who's being disingenuous here, unless you really are the FMS drone you say you are (I like your self-description better than "Child of the Magenta", but they're the same thing). If that's the case you'd be doing everyone a favour by going back to bush flying.

Automation's real purpose is to make aircraft operation more efficient, not easier. It also allows safe operations in weather conditions unsuitable for hand flying and its necessary visual conditions. It is also very good at mindless level flight and following a predetermined track. It does not however fly the aircraft....that's what you're for.
I would say it's purpose is to make operations more efficient from the pilot perspective. It allows complex operations to be conducted with relative ease by the crew. It increases safety by performing the actual task and/or calculation at hand and, once all variables are input and confirmed to be correct, reduces the pilot to a monitoring role. This is ideal because it frees up the human computing power element that would otherwise be consumed with said monitoring as well as physically making the inputs required to correct deviations detected by the monitoring. Even if you consider the two distinct yet concomitant tasks (of monitoring and physically manipulating the controls to achieve a desired performance state) as equally taxing, which I personally do not, automation cuts the pilot workload by at least 50%. This makes it easier, there's just no way around it. Undoubtedly automation has it's own unique traps and pitfalls, but that does not equate to increased difficulty, only the requisite increased level of awareness of, and vigilance for those particular snares.
In response to your questions, yes. I have turned off all automation because I detected an error that I could not correct appropriately with the automation. It was due to an input error on my part. Fortunately, thanks to my previous experience it was detected quickly, and hand flying was no problem as I have a strong foundation therein. But the fact that that error occurred was not evidence that automation made the task more difficult. Suggesting that would be highly illogical and just plain incorrect. It's evidence of nothing more than the fact that certain unique errors can occur if the technology is used incorrectly.
Furthermore, I take umbrage with your assertion that hand flying requires visual conditions. As a pilot who has passed numerous IFR rides on aircraft with no automation, and successfully carried out numerous approaches to (near, or at) IMC minimums in those aircraft, VMC is not a prerequisite for hand flying. Although it often makes it easier, just like automation.
At the end of the day, I still don't understand why you would take it so personally that an internet stranger thinks that automation makes flying planes easier. I'm not diminishing the importance or responsibility of the job. I believe that is a constant across the board regardless of your aircraft equipment. I'm only suggesting that flying non-automated aircraft is more difficult than flying automated ones to the same standards, based on my experience. You've made it clear that you find flying highly automated aircraft very challenging, so I'd be curious to hear your experiences with non-automated, hand flown aircraft that was such a breeze by comparison. I can only imagine it must be quite different from mine.
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Re: First Job

Post by Rockie »

shimmydampner wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:18 am I would say it's purpose is to make operations more efficient from the pilot perspective. It allows complex operations to be conducted with relative ease by the crew. It increases safety by performing the actual task and/or calculation at hand and, once all variables are input and confirmed to be correct, reduces the pilot to a monitoring role.
The more complex the task the less automation is appropriate usually. We still have to do the "Cleared left hand visual keep it tight traffic following" approaches which are far beyond a autopilot's capability. Back to stick and rudder. Windshear can exceed the autopilot's ability and will require very delicate hand flying in very rough conditions, GPWS requires hand flying. Landing requires hand flying except in very defined circumstances which I'll get to. Taking off always requires hand flying regardless of the circumstances. Autopilots are good at some clearly defined tasks over long periods of time which is what makes them efficient from a company's point of view. They are also sometimes mandatory which I will also get to.
shimmydampner wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:18 am Furthermore, I take umbrage with your assertion that hand flying requires visual conditions.
That isn't what I said at all. I said "It also allows safe operations in weather conditions unsuitable for hand flying and its necessary visual conditions" Here I am talking about Category 3 landings where you cannot see the runway until the wheels are down. Perhaps I should have been more specific. Autopilots are also mandatory to fly above FL290 in RVSM airspace and to do certain performance based procedures (RNP AR) to ensure safe separation from other aircraft and the ground respectively.
shimmydampner wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:18 am I still don't understand why you would take it so personally that an internet stranger thinks that automation makes flying planes easier.
I have a very thick skin and take very little personally. Certainly not that. I am merely correcting the blanket statement that automation makes flying planes easier. It does in many circumstances. It also makes it much more difficult in abnormal circumstances and many normal circumstances where a pilot needs to know how to properly use the automation, which is a skill itself that purely manual pilots do not need to know. Automation doesn't think and cannot anticipate, that's the pilot's job and he/she must incorporate automation modes and limitations into that thinking. Automation is also not always reliable and can never...ever...be left alone or fully trusted.
shimmydampner wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:18 am You've made it clear that you find flying highly automated aircraft very challenging, so I'd be curious to hear your experiences with non-automated, hand flown aircraft that was such a breeze by comparison. I can only imagine it must be quite different from mine.
I've made it clear that flying highly automated aircraft can be very challenging and much more complex than simple aircraft for a whole host of reasons. I have flown a wide variety of aircraft in a wide variety of roles with a wide degree of automation from full to none. None of these aircraft I would describe as "easy" because we tend to use aircraft to the extent of their capabilities whatever they may be. Most pilots who fly highly automated aircraft have also flown non-automated ones and would likely agree with me. People (pilots included) who think automation is easy and making pilots redundant probably haven't flown highly automated aircraft and do not really know automation's limitations or its capability to mess things up.
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Eric Janson
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Re: First Job

Post by Eric Janson »

FLunkown wrote: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:25 am I'm interested in what people think for what is the best start for Pilots (maybe there isn't one) but I have my own thoughts, I would like to hear yours.
I started on the ramp at a company in the NWT that is almost universally despised on this site.

I worked for a man who is almost universally disparaged on this site.

It was hard work - nothing wrong with that imho. I left this company as Capt on the DC-3 with a two page letter of reference from the owner (which I never asked for). I have a CV that stands out from that of most other people and the company I worked for has become very well known globally. I get some interesting reactions when people ask about my background.

Things I learned working here have kept me out of trouble flying large jets all over the World. I'm quite happy turning automation 'OFF' but I'm noticing a great deal of reluctance to do this in the current generation of Pilots.

Several recent Airline accidents have consisted of a loss of control after a relatively benign failure that required the aircraft to be flown manually. Several serious incidents as well during the visual part of the approach.

I accept that the opportunities now are very different than those in the mid 80s and people can move on to complex aircraft with much less experience than what used to be the case.

A number of years honing your manual flying skills will serve you well down the road - as will some PIC time. Just my opinion.
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Re: First Job

Post by TT1900 »

Interesting read.

I’m going to throw another option out there though it certainly isn’t to everyone’s taste. Start your career flying for the Air Force. I started with the military 13 years ago and plan on staying for a few more years at least, though many of my friends and colleagues have moved on. It’s got its own set of advantages and disadvantages like anything.

Advantages:
- Unique flying, unique machines (generally), unique roles, different set of rules.
- Lots of opportunity and always changing.
- Great training, educational opportunities, professional development.
- Reasonable pay, great benefits, pension if you stick around.
- Travel/living abroad. Exchange jobs, foreign HQ jobs, embassy jobs if senior.

Disadvantages:
- 7 year commitment after wings. Call it 10years total.
- 150-500hrs per year, depends on fleet.
- Go where you’re told: no guarantee what you’ll fly. Could be F18, C17, CH-47, or anything in between.
- “QUEEP” = lots of duties other than flying, very little of it necessary, even less of it enjoyable.
- Go where you’re told: Some bases are nicer than others.
- Travel/Living abroad. Name a shithole conflict zone, we’re there.
- Government bureaucracy.
- “Officer First” = Paperwork & Deskjob, eventually.

There are others but those are the biggies. As always, life is what you make of it. So far I’m enjoying myself, but friends who have moved on to teaching in Saudi, flying for the Airlines, and flying corporate are all enjoying themselves too.
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Turbo82
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Re: First Job

Post by Turbo82 »

I’ve been with the Harbour Air for nearly a decade and it’s been the best place I’ve ever worked. My job is always challenging, my benefits are at par with most companies and often better and we also get the interline and jumpseat travel agreements that most top airlines get, rrsp matching, etc. Every job gets repetitive at times, however, I have always found mine to have its fair share of excitement, and lately, more advancement than I could have ever expected 5 years ago. 3 days off a week, banked stat days to use when you want and now I’m at at 4 weeks holiday. It would also be a hard sell to go elsewhere so I get the “never ever trading lifestyle” comment;)
Not saying mine’s better or vice versa, just letting everyone know what I think it’s like on the other side in case you’re on the fence. I’ve truly enjoyed it so far...
By the way, less and less Dockhands seem to be ready to go on the dock these days so the wait isn’t as long as it used to be. Aspiring pilots, this is a great place to start on the dock with a real good opportunity to get in to the twin before the spring and advance to the beaver and to move up from there.
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Re: First Job

Post by Meatservo »

I think as a young person, you should take careful note of what kind of plane makes you stop and look up when it flies by, and set your goals in that direction to start off with. For a first job, there is really no wrong answer. You're going to be spending a lot of time with aeroplanes for the next fourty years, so figure out what kind of plane charges your batteries and go do that. Forget about this "quickest route" stuff. Assuming you're in your early twenties (?) you can change your mind mid-stream several times and use the time in your logbook to get a more suitable job, almost with impunity.

If you want to be an instructor, please make sure you have a desire to teach. If you don't, you will be doing a disservice to other pilots who need to learn from you.

If you are charged up by float or ski planes, please make sure you enjoy the wilderness and working hard outside. You'll be spending a lot of time out there, and if you don't like the woods, you will be doing a disservice to your co-workers and passengers who rely on you to know your stuff in that environment.

If you are charged up by older hands-on nostalgic types, please make sure you understand how machines work. You need to massage these old beasts with care, and they will reward you with perfomance and an appreciation for aviation and the people in whose footsteps we are all walking. You will be doing a disservice to yourself and everyone around you if you don't understand how the machine works.

If you want to be an "airline" pilot, and operate modern high-performance planes, please make sure you are ready to study, learn procedures, and enjoy precision and accuracy. Make sure you know how to get along with peers and are ready to accomodate other viewpoints while being able to accurately articulate your own. You will be working with a lot of other people who you won't necessarily know very well.

All of these jobs require a desire to better oneself in the course of doing them. When the light goes out and you no longer look back over your shoulder at the machine as you walk away from it at night, I don't mean every time of course, but in general, it might be time to reevaluate. I know a few former "airline" pilots who went back to flying Twin Otters, or instructing, and I know lots of bush pilots who became airline pilots, and I know lots of people who were instructors, or still are, or got into instructing as training pilots at their air services. The world is your Oyster as a new pilot. You need to figure out for yourself what looks exciting and let that be what you decide to aim for.
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Re: First Job

Post by photofly »

Meatservo wrote: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:16 am You can drag your wheeled map-case, with no actual maps in it, through a terminal with the gold braid on your cap and the rings that don't even go all the way around your cheap sleeves, and perhaps enjoy the reflected remnants of the respect laypeople have for people like you that was earned by pilots of the past who actually did something worthy of note.
Ouch!
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Re: First Job

Post by Meatservo »

Erm, yeah. I wrote that a while ago during a moment of self-loathing. My rings don't go all the way around my sleeves, either. Everybody has existential low points. Especially when people stop you in the departures lounge to ask if you know where the departure gate for such-and-such a flight is, or which way to the nearest handicap bathroom.

I'm in a better place now.
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Re: First Job

Post by Andjam »

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Turbo82
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Re: First Job

Post by Turbo82 »

Turbine caravan time is great to have. However, the company is looking for at least a few hundred hours on floats as well to go in to the beaver. We hire inside and outside the company for most flight positions but the twin otter first officer positions are primarily dockhand to pilot positions. It never hurts to apply to any of the postings. I’d throw my resume in and see what happens if it’s something you’re interested in.
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