First Job

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For a first Pilot job, where would the best start be?

Poll ended at Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:25 am

Flight Instructor
18
22%
Bush Flying
45
55%
Ramp (Pilot in waiting 3-12 months)
19
23%
 
Total votes: 82

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C.W.E.
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Re: First Job

#51 Post by C.W.E. » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:42 pm

You’re right. Automation can get you in trouble very quickly if not used properly and to the correct degree, right down to not using it at all. A skill you never had to learn. Swept wing, heavy, high speed jets with a lot of inertia also require handling skills you never needed.
Rockie when it comes to airplane handling skills can you tell me what you know about how to handle porpoising on the water in a flying boat, and how do you judge when swells on large bodies of water are beyond the capabilities of you or the airplane?

Porposing very quickly can and will wreck the airplane and can and will kill you.

So seeing as only you big jet drivers are real pilots and the rest of us are not real pilots here is your chance to enlighten the troops here.
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Re: First Job

#52 Post by C.W.E. » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:13 pm

For goingnowherefast:::

Here is an article I wrote for Pprune when I was in the advanced flight training business maybe you could let me know if it has any value or was I just dick measuring?

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The landing and judging height.
Some years ago I wrote an article about judging the height for landing here on PPRuNe.

A discussion in another thread has prompted me to retype the article as close as I can remember it.

From a stabilized approach ( stabilized angle of attack at a pre determined airspeed. ) you fly the airplane to your preselected flare point on the runway with or without power.

( With a light airplane the flare from the approach path to level with the landing surface should be started at approximately fifteen feet for a nose wheel airplane or a tail wheel airplane that you are planning to three point. )

During the final approach your center of sight line should be the point at which you plan to flare, for instance the runway numbers.

At the flare height you do two things, raise the nose to the level attitude and at the same time refocus the center of your sight line at a point ahead of you on the runway center line where apparent movement of the runway towards you ceases..... this will be about four to five hundred feet ahead of your present position depending on G.S. and your sight line above the runway.

This new sight line will give you the optimum angle to best judge not only your height but any deviation left or right of the center line, the picture you get now will allow you to see the far end of the runway as well as the runway closer in in your peripheral vision .

Do not fixate on this point of the runway ( The point where apparent movement of runway towards you ceases. ) use it as the center of your vision forward and you can use eye movement both further and closer in as a means of height judgement....

...Holding the airplane in the level attitude with power off results in a loss of airspeed and lift will decay, the airplane will sink towards the runway.... at one foot above the runway use the elevator to prevent the airplane from landing which will result in a proper nose up attitude at touch down.

That in a nut shell is a quick overview of how I teach height judgement for the landing.
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Re: First Job

#53 Post by Rockie » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:16 pm

Couldn’t tell you any of that Chuck, never having done it. Your problem is you think if a pilot hasn’t done what you’ve done they’re a worse pilot than you are.

Complete Bullshit.

There’s a world of flying experience you don’t know squat about either despite your century and a half flying antiquated airplanes.
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Re: First Job

#54 Post by confusedalot » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:48 pm

Rockie wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:05 am
C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:26 pm

Comparing modern turbine airplanes to machines like the DC3 is really difficult to do because of all the automation on today's aircraft and of course the reliability of turbines.
You’re right. Automation can get you in trouble very quickly if not used properly and to the correct degree, right down to not using it at all. A skill you never had to learn. Swept wing, heavy, high speed jets with a lot of inertia also require handling skills you never needed.

Then there’s CAT II/III, GPWS, ETOPS, TCAS, RNP AR, GLS, LPV, Low Energy Go-Arounds, HUD’s, Simultaneous Offset Approaches, Windshear Recovery etc. All things that require knowledge, skill and training you never needed to worry about.

Watch the news the last few days regarding exploding engines and décompressions at Southwest?

Oh...for the days flying simple, unpressurized, unautomated, straight wing, slow airplanes that stayed close to their own time zone....

As for posting your real name, what you boast about as courageous most people consider stupid. Nor does it earn you credibility.

To the original OP question, I don’t think it really matters where you start in today’s hiring environment. They all have their pros and cons, and it depends a great deal on the individual’s personal situation and preference.
Quite sad indeed.

As far as I can tell, CWE is of a generation that is commonly referred to as hands and feet. Hands and feet really means flying skill and knowledge of the flying world at that time and place.

The fancy acronyms being displayed about operating today are everyday things that everybody learns, and it is not that hard to do. As stated before, I did it, the industry evolved, so what's the bid deal? EVERYBODY has the capacity to absorb all of that stuff, it is not rocket science. At the risk of being trashed, and I know I will be, it is nothing more than button pushing. And I can push the right buttons with the best of them........

I will put forward to you that, one the one hand, old people like me are operating heavy jets with zero problems, but were once in a situation where an airplane actually had to be flown and actually had to do fixed card ADF approaches with wind into some godforsaken gravel runway with antiquated equipment that had to be constantly looked after and that required a whole lot of mpore attention.

HS748, which resembled a submarine deck more than an airplane cockpit, on an NDB approach in the middle of nowhere, or, 767 on a Cat 3B approach with all of the automation you would want, including 3 autopilots and fail safe autoland, guess which one requires more skill.....................
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Re: First Job

#55 Post by Rockie » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:57 pm

Back when they were new thousands of kids learned how to fly steam driven airplanes confused...even flying boats. It wasn’t that hard either. To suggest it took greater flying skill than aircraft today is utter nonsense. The fact is hands and feet were all that was available so yeah, one got good at it just as someone checking out on them today would be. Flying skill however also entails knowledge and judgement which can be a challenge in today’s much more complex aircraft and operating environment. Aircraft complexity that can actually fail and/or work against you.

But you knew that right?

By the way, did it ever occur to you that the auto flight system doesn’t fly the aircraft?
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Re: First Job

#56 Post by C.W.E. » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:22 pm

Thanks confusedalot for your post.
As far as I can tell, CWE is of a generation that is commonly referred to as hands and feet. Hands and feet really means flying skill and knowledge of the flying world at that time and place.
Exactly, and I chose to fly what I found to be interesting jobs during my career that required attention to airplane handling

( seven years Ag. flying, fifteen years fire bombing and eight years in the air show business. )

Flying is a manual skill that varies from one kind of flying machine to another but the aerodynamics are the same for all of them.

One of he critical phases of flight is the landing and some airplanes require more attention to attitudes than others.

Sure old arplanes and new airplanes will require different handling skills than others, for instance when landing in a strong gusting cross wind which airplane is more difficult to land and stay on the centre line during the latter phases of the landing a Beech 18 or a Boeing 737?

I had no control over when I was born nor do I have any control over getting old and I reached the time when I had to retire so I did.

But I got to thinking about this and decided to see if I could pass the medical to renew my pilots licenses and if I could pass it then I decided I would do some part time sea plane training.

The medical was very in depth and I had to get a whole range of tests done due to my age ( 82 ) and after a couple of weeks of appointments low and behold I passed the medical and now we will see if I can remember how to fly and teach it again.

I'll let you know if I am to senile to remember once I get that so called pilot license abortion renewed. :mrgreen:

I posted the piece on judging how to land so that if I can't remember I can print it and take it with me....

.....unless of course goingnowherefast thinks it is all wrong and has no value. :rolleyes:
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Re: First Job

#57 Post by Zaibatsu » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:32 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:48 pm
HS748, which resembled a submarine deck more than an airplane cockpit, on an NDB approach in the middle of nowhere, or, 767 on a Cat 3B approach with all of the automation you would want, including 3 autopilots and fail safe autoland, guess which one requires more skill.....................
I’m going to say the 767 is going to be more difficult

A CAT 3B autoland isn’t just pressing a button and the plane landing itself. Nor is an NDB on steam gauges the pinnacle of aviation skill.

An NDB isnt getting you down below a 50 foot decision height within the airport environment. Its doesn’t come with a stack of autopilot modes you have to be sure are active or armed. It doesn’t require a split second decision of whether the plane is correctly positioned or to command a go around (which is the reason it’s automated because humans aren’t fast enough to do both). It doesn’t require anywhere near as much training, conditions, and legalities in order to conduct.

Comparing that to keeping a needle +/- 5 degrees and setting a stopwatch to break out at 600 feet and 2 miles the very rare time you actually need to do it to minimums? Please.
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Re: First Job

#58 Post by confusedalot » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:37 pm

Well,

Skill and judgement were always required to safely operate a flying machine. No matter what era. No matter what size of airplane.

I had to operate a big old 720 for a time, a 720 is a short 707, and I can definitively tell you that it is a whole hell of alot harder to operate than any other heavy jet I have operated, the damn thing is all over the sky, so imagine what it is in final approach. Even the 747 classic was easier, if you talk to anyone who has done it, they will tell you it flies like a 150. No kidding. It actually does fly like a 150. So, so much for the bigger is more difficult assertion.

As far as the autopilot allusion is concerned, the operator pushes the right buttons in the right sequence, and that goes for fms management as well, presto, you get perfect results with little effort. Of course it takes a knowledge base.

Sure easier than the now ancient INS and Omegas that I had to work with, especially the Omega, what a piece of &*(?. As an afterthought, met a former F18 and twin huey driver who also did T33 in his young years. Sounds like managing a null loop manual cranking ADF instrument to get a bearing, squished between his two legs, was quite a chore I could not even relate to even in my older age, but he did it, and, most importantly, he managed to survive in the F18 world. So, point is, everything can be learned.

I did find it easier to fly big jets than turboprops and light twins. More ground school and more study for sure, but it is easier at the end of the day.
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Re: First Job

#59 Post by Rockie » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:50 pm

Funny, I also flew the T-33 and F-18. Both had their challenges based on the roles they did and the equipment they had to offer. Was one harder than the other? Depends entirely on what you were doing.

Using automation properly is a skill. It’s another way of flying the aircraft that’s all. Is it harder than hand flying? Depends entirely on what you’re doing.

It is truly tiresome however hearing this constant bleating about how much harder hand bombed aircraft are because it’s total bullshit. It isn’t harder, it’s just different. This constant put down of other pilots is also bullshit and tiresome. Nobody’s trying to steal Cat’s (or yours) glory days away from him.
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Re: First Job

#60 Post by C.W.E. » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:06 pm

I did find it easier to fly big jets than turboprops and light twins
I was fortunate to have flown a 690B Turbo Commanded for a corporation for several years and it was a real joy to fly.
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Re: First Job

#61 Post by confusedalot » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:42 pm

Rockie wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:50 pm
Funny, I also flew the T-33 and F-18. Both had their challenges based on the roles they did and the equipment they had to offer. Was one harder than the other? Depends entirely on what you were doing.

Using automation properly is a skill. It’s another way of flying the aircraft that’s all. Is it harder than hand flying? Depends entirely on what you’re doing.

It is truly tiresome however hearing this constant bleating about how much harder hand bombed aircraft are because it’s total bullshit. It isn’t harder, it’s just different. This constant put down of other pilots is also bullshit and tiresome. Nobody’s trying to steal Cat’s (or yours) glory days away from him.
He he he,

Tongue in cheek, I had zero glory days. zero. I am part of the schmucks who thought I would make a go of it and just worked very hard who could actually do the job and clearly understood it, but never got any glory. We are not all born equal.

So no glory smashing here, I just tell it like it is, which is probably the the main reason I got no glory in the first place :lol:
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Re: First Job

#62 Post by Rockie » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:13 am

I don’t find flying large complex airplanes easier than flying ones designed to be strictly hand flown. Every time I begin to agree with you and Chuck that this is easy, something happens to remind me that it’s not and to pull my head out of my ass. Maybe that never happened to you confused, or maybe you just forgot the times that it did.

Nobody ever stops making mistakes no matter what they’re flying, how many different airplanes they’ve flown or for how long. In a business where mistakes can have tragic consequences, that alone strips away any bragging rights anyone might have.
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Re: First Job

#63 Post by valleyboy » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:07 am

An NDB isnt getting you down below a 50 foot decision height within the airport environment
-- really !! :mrgreen: I can remember when Timmins got the ILS and the joke was the minimums increased by 100 feet -- LOL

In the discussion on who's "dick" is bigger - it is much easier to be a pilot now. Attitudes have changed, rules have been tightened up and with the training and such the "geterdone" attitude is certainly less prevalent. Things change and shift. Hands and feet fade a little to automation but as indicated above it's the human factor issues that never change. Being able to manage a flight deck and use you head is what it's all about,Ironically,current personal observations, I see 700-1000 hour TT captains who make the image of the crusty old captain in CRM profiles look like a modal captain - how do we fix that?

There are and always were 3 groups in aviation, the guys who believe it's a calling, ones who think it's just a job (actually dislike what they do) and likely like everything else somewhere between the other 2 is the sweet spot.

Back to the thread - a first job is what it is, unfortunately, with present conditions people think they should have a choice. Well sit back and wait for you dream first job and be left in the dust. You have 250 hours and barely the skills to survive on your own. Take the first offer and be thankful. There is no "bush" anymore. My only objection is that 250 hour pilots should not be instructing. That's the one sad area of aviation. The industry needs to change and attract professional, career instructors, not time builders.
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Re: First Job

#64 Post by shimmydampner » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:48 am

These arguments are so stupid; everyone just massaging themselves furiously while getting all bent out of shape about the opinion of some internet stranger.
I do find it interesting that some pilots would, in a different context, probably espouse the obvious benefits of automation in terms of safety, reduction of pilot workload, etc. However, when it comes to the context of defending their need to feel special, they will bleat on about the problems of complexity making life challenging and difficult. Sure, they are two sides of the same coin, but let’s not be disingenuous here.
If you’re truly being honest with yourself, you will admit that some flying jobs are harder than others, regardless of what lines you are crossing to make the comparison, be it eras of aviation, types of operations, aircraft types, or even the same aircraft doing different operations. Regardless of whether you fall on the less challenging or more challenging side of any given comparison, there’s no need to try to diminish the requisite knowledge, skills and abilities of the other side.
However, objectively speaking, not all flying jobs are created equal. To suggest that they are, and are just different, is not really being honest. Before becoming a 705, FMS drone, flying from one fully automated approach to the next, I spent years doing fairly hard core bush flying. When I tally up the ledger on both sides, I can certainly say that one is much more challenging than the other.
Furthermore if I’m being honest with myself, I can absolutely imagine that doing the same work with the equipment and in the environment of 20, 30 or 50 years ago, must have been significantly more challenging still.
I don’t feel like admitting either of those things is a blow to my ego now.
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Re: First Job

#65 Post by youhavecontrol » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:17 am

This is the AvCanada I am getting to know.. I'm glad the radio frequencies aren't this congested with nonsense. ..well, except for ACTPA
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Re: First Job

#66 Post by Rockie » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:09 pm

shimmydampner wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:48 am
However, when it comes to the context of defending their need to feel special, they will bleat on about the problems of complexity making life challenging and difficult. Sure, they are two sides of the same coin, but let’s not be disingenuous here.
Rockie wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:50 pm
Using automation properly is a skill. It’s another way of flying the aircraft that’s all. Is it harder than hand flying? Depends entirely on what you’re doing.
I don't know, I thought that comment was pretty clear
shimmydampner wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:48 am
Before becoming a 705, FMS drone, flying from one fully automated approach to the next, I spent years doing fairly hard core bush flying. When I tally up the ledger on both sides, I can certainly say that one is much more challenging than the other.
Curious comment. Have you never done a visual? Ever clicked off the autopilot because what you were doing was far too dynamic to keep up with on the MCP? Ever gotten rid of the AP because...well...it's just easier? Ever got caught with your pants down around your ankles because you were a FMS drone instead of the person supposed to be in control? Ever scratched your head wondering what the airplane was doing when you not only should have known, but should have anticipated? Have you ever, even once in your career as a FMS drone, intervened in the FMS programming by using direct modes on the MCP or even hand flew.


Really, who's being disingenuous here, unless you really are the FMS drone you say you are (I like your self-description better than "Child of the Magenta", but they're the same thing). If that's the case you'd be doing everyone a favour by going back to bush flying.

Automation's real purpose is to make aircraft operation more efficient, not easier. It also allows safe operations in weather conditions unsuitable for hand flying and its necessary visual conditions. It is also very good at mindless level flight and following a predetermined track. It does not however fly the aircraft....that's what you're for.
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Re: First Job

#67 Post by C.W.E. » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:55 pm

I guess this discussion is bound to be subjective and will be looked at based on the equipment you fly and how you fly it.

One of the most risky, difficult flights I can remember was ferrying the PBY we used in the movie " Below " by Merimax from England to Virginia for the new owner.

The route was in four flights London to Wick Scotland which was easy.

Then there were the next three legs that were not so easy weather wise Wick to Keflavik Iceland which was a bit more difficult.

The next leg was the most risky Keflavik to Narsarsuak Greenland due to the height of the Greenland icecap and the quickly changing weather in the summer at Narsarsuak wich can go from CAVU to Zero zero in a very short time span.

The next leg to Goose Bay was a bit easier as there were more alternates should Goose go below limits.

The last leg to Virginia was just normal IFR flying with good weather forecasts and lots of alternates.

Here is why it was difficult.

The airplane is flight planned at 115 knots.

There was no autopilot.

There was no deicing or anti icing on the airplane.

There was no weather radar or strike finder.

Our Nav aids were one ADF and two hand held GPS units.

One very useful items we carried was a Satellite phone for checking weather at the destination when we were of VHF radio communications range.

So is that route more difficult to fly in a B787 or in the PBY?
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Re: First Job

#68 Post by square » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:06 pm

LOL, most people think the best job out of flight school is bush flying?? How exactly do they expect a fresh graduate to get that job instead of working the ramp? Even if you do you won't get it. I've got 7000 hours I can't get a job on floats.
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Re: First Job

#69 Post by C.W.E. » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:25 pm

Does getting the fifty hour seaplane course help getting the first sea plane flying job?











do
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Re: First Job

#70 Post by Rockie » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:03 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:55 pm
So is that route more difficult to fly in a B787 or in the PBY?
You can play the anecdotal game all day Chuck. I’d rather do your flight than divert to a Chinese alternate through military airspace after a 15 hour flight in a 787, and spend the next 6 hours negotiating some kind of flight plan to get back to your destination.

Pick a flight...any flight. Someone here that you shit on can do you one better.
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Re: First Job

#71 Post by trey kule » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:16 pm

I'm interested in what people think for what is the best start for Pilots (maybe there isn't one) but I have my own thoughts, I would like to hear yours.

Well, after reading all the relevant responses to your question, it might be the best start not to ask pilots on the internet for sage advice. Unless you think arguing like two starving pit bulls over a pork chop is the best start. :smt040

At the risk of being ironic, if you are young and have no real job experience, go out and just enjoy the flying, build up some work and aviation experience.
As has been pointed out, there are lots of aviation specialities here, but the world is changing and evolving, and success as a pilot will mean adapting to the future, not living in the past...unless flying antique planes (pre Beaver era) is you life goal.
The rush to the right seat in the airlines in your early twenties means about 40 years of flying essentially the same thing subject to future moderization
You will notice here that many of the older posters flew lots of other interesting machines in their careers before the airlines.
The “bush” today is not the bush of the 1960s. And neither are the heavies.
I too agree, and wish that instruction was a career goal, and not a time building exercise, but I am not certain that is a probability
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Re: First Job

#72 Post by square » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:22 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:55 pm
Then there were the next three legs that were not so easy weather wise Wick to Keflavik Iceland which was a bit more difficult.

The next leg was the most risky Keflavik to Narsarsuak Greenland due to the height of the Greenland icecap and the quickly changing weather in the summer at Narsarsuak wich can go from CAVU to Zero zero in a very short time span.

The next leg to Goose Bay was a bit easier as there were more alternates should Goose go below limits.

The last leg to Virginia was just normal IFR flying with good weather forecasts and lots of alternates.

Here is why it was difficult.

The airplane is flight planned at 115 knots.

There was no autopilot.

There was no deicing or anti icing on the airplane.

There was no weather radar or strike finder.

Our Nav aids were one ADF and two hand held GPS units.

One very useful items we carried was a Satellite phone for checking weather at the destination when we were of VHF radio communications range.

So is that route more difficult to fly in a B787 or in the PBY?
Oh I've done this route! From Luxembourg though through Keflavik and Narsarsuak to ah what do you call it, Fro Bay. Iqaluit I guess now, yeah the approach into Narsarsuaq is a gnarly one you gotta descend real hard and they have three different minimums depending on what kind of missed approach climb gradient you can make right? I would agree the missed approach would be really hard but lol, can you really say doing an approach is really hard? It brings you right in on final for the runway there brother, we're supposed to be good at that. And you had two GPS units? Good lord get down off the cross you're a trades person.
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Re: First Job

#73 Post by C.W.E. » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:37 pm

can you really say doing an approach is really hard? It brings you right in on final for the runway there brother, we're supposed to be good at that. And you had two GPS units? Good lord get down off the cross you're a trades person
.

Where did I mention flying an approach was difficult?

The difficult part was the time element flying at 115 knots, difficult in that the Narsarsuak weather can and does change relatively fast in the summer months.

Maybe difficult is the wrong description?
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Re: First Job

#74 Post by square » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:49 pm

Ah yeah I agree Nars is a rough one, but I think you cruised in their easily come on, you know what speed you were gonna be doing before you left, and I dont think a professional as experienced as yourself would have any trouble with that one. It's just an arc. If you don't see it you'd go to your alternate, right?
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Re: First Job

#75 Post by square » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:45 pm

Meatservo wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:16 am
atphat wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:38 am
If a float operator will pay me 200+ a year to work 10 days a month I’ll fly floats.
Oh. And a pension. Benefits. Travel benefits. Good disability. Fair treatment.

I think it is your misunderstanding. No offence to the float guys but I always chuckle when I hear pilots say the airlines aren’t a very good job.
Depends what you call a great job. I admit, lots of money and barely having to lift a finger to a complish anything appeals to a lot of people.

You might ask yourself why anyone would want to be a musician, or a carpenter, or build hot-rods for a living, too, when any of these people are more than smart enough to become an "airline" pilot.

For some people, aviation is more than sitting in a chair in a cheap suit and following rules. There is a physical pleasure in handling an aircraft, particularly on water. There is a sense of accomplishment in staying safe in, shall we say, "austere" conditions. There is a sense of camaraderie among "bush" pilots that you won't find at the "airlines".

Believe it or not, a job, like any number on offer at a popular regional airline I shall not name, where you can sign on with a thousand hours or so of relatively mundane 704 flying under your belt as second in command and a bunch of bogus "pilot in command under supervision" time to boot, and then six months later get upgraded to "captain" because your union number comes up, is not much of an accomplishment. You can drag your wheeled map-case, with no actual maps in it, through a terminal with the gold braid on your cap and the rings that don't even go all the way around your cheap sleeves, and perhaps enjoy the reflected remnants of the respect laypeople have for people like you that was earned by pilots of the past who actually did something worthy of note.

Some people need to feel like they've earned something. You can have your benefits and your union and your "pension", but you're no navigator. You're no adventurer. You're no "commander". If you're even good at flying planes, it's because you do something else with them in your spare time. Some people expect more from their profession. And yes, I fly large jets. I know what I'm talking about.
I don't think you two disagree. Both jobs are great and deserve top compensation!
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