Buttonville Tower set to close in July!

[photofly]

Because I want my user fees, small as they are, spent on the basis of sound policy and not on whomever shouts the loudest.

[Cessna 180]

I don't really understand why, beyond traffic statistics, anyone as a pilot would be against, or indifferent to, keeping an atc facility open? Economics? Is it to help the government with the budget? Or perhaps to help the private company NavCanada to manage their resources in a better/more convenient way for them, expecting that by closing this tower they will open/improve facilities in some other more needed location?

Except they don't. How long has Red Deer been waiting for a Tower? I can guarantee you that closing Buttonville won't open a tower someplace else. It will just be one less line item for NavCanada to pay for. Look at the US, pretty well every major/minor city has at least one towered airport and cities the size of Toronto have two, sometimes three satellite airports for GA traffic with towers. If you close Buttonville Tower, there are literally 0 airports in the GTA with towers that a jet can fly into (unless you consider Oshawa, but it's quite removed from Toronto). Hell, even the "sprawling metropolis" has two towered airports, and they used to have three before City Center closed its doors. It's also not prohibitively expensive to operate into YEG like it is for YYZ.

I understand the US model is a little different than Canada, most smaller airports (essentially all Class D) use private contract towers with the operator picking up part of the bill and the FAA the other. Maybe this is a model Canada should adopt. FYI we do have one contract tower, Southport, with the military's contractor paying Serco for it (same contractor many US towers use).

[photofly]

there are literally 0 airports in the GTA with towers that a jet can fly into (unless you consider Oshawa,

This is quite a hilarious statement. All the FBOs at YYZ are there for what, exactly?

So, Yes! Apart from YYZ, and Buttonville, and Oshawa, and Hamilton, there are literally ZERO airports that take private jets ANYWHERE near Toronto!

Closing Buttonville tower doesn’t automatically open a tower somewhere else. But NavCanada should maintain and open towers based on solid criteria and not campaigns.

[Cessna 180]

there are literally 0 airports in the GTA with towers that a jet can fly into (unless you consider Oshawa,

This is quite a hilarious statement. All the FBOs at YYZ are there for what, exactly?

So, Yes! Apart from YYZ, and Buttonville, and Oshawa, and Hamilton, there are literally ZERO airports that take private jets ANYWHERE near Toronto!

Closing Buttonville tower doesn’t automatically open a tower somewhere else. But NavCanada should maintain and open towers based on solid criteria and not campaigns.

I don't disagree with you that Toronto has two fine FBOs that jets can use, but if you read my post, I was talking about less expensive satellite airports. Toronto is extremely expensive to land your Citation or Learjet or even your King Air. Hamilton isn't in the GTA, nor is Waterloo. I guess Oshawa would count as the GTA so I'll retract my statement that there aren't any airports. However, I think we can both see the role that Buttonville plays for business aviation in Toronto.

[rookiepilot]

I don't disagree with you that Toronto has two fine FBOs that jets can use, but if you read my post, I was talking about less expensive satellite airports. Toronto is extremely expensive to land your Citation or Learjet or even your King Air. Hamilton isn't in the GTA, nor is Waterloo. I guess Oshawa would count as the GTA so I'll retract my statement that there aren't any airports. However, I think we can both see the role that Buttonville plays for business aviation in Toronto.

Gee, who cares? Fly into Waterloo or Hamilton with that citation, take a limo. They are close enough. No farther than Teteboro to NYC or others.

The world will keep turning.

[172_Captain]

I don't disagree with you that Toronto has two fine FBOs that jets can use, but if you read my post, I was talking about less expensive satellite airports. Toronto is extremely expensive to land your Citation or Learjet or even your King Air. Hamilton isn't in the GTA, nor is Waterloo. I guess Oshawa would count as the GTA so I'll retract my statement that there aren't any airports. However, I think we can both see the role that Buttonville plays for business aviation in Toronto.

Or continue to fly your jet into Buttonville once the tower is gone. It’s not like a tower is a requirement to land a jet. Many a jet fly into uncontrolled and MF airports everyday accross Canada just fine. Your Vapp speed in a citation or lear is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 130. Get over yourself.

[linecrew]

I don't really understand why, beyond traffic statistics, anyone as a pilot would be against, or indifferent to, keeping an atc facility open? Economics? Is it to help the government with the budget? Or perhaps to help the private company NavCanada to manage their resources in a better/more convenient way for them, expecting that by closing this tower they will open/improve facilities in some other more needed location?

Nav Canada is not a part of the government and I would agree that a costly tower operation at a location that doesn't meet criteria is a mis-use of my Nav Canada fees. Especially when other programs such as space based ADS-B are being developed by them. Where do you think the funding for that comes from?

[skybluetrek]

I don't really understand why, beyond traffic statistics, anyone as a pilot would be against, or indifferent to, keeping an atc facility open? Economics? Is it to help the government with the budget? Or perhaps to help the private company NavCanada to manage their resources in a better/more convenient way for them, expecting that by closing this tower they will open/improve facilities in some other more needed location?

Except they don't. How long has Red Deer been waiting for a Tower? I can guarantee you that closing Buttonville won't open a tower someplace else. It will just be one less line item for NavCanada to pay for. Look at the US, pretty well every major/minor city has at least one towered airport and cities the size of Toronto have two, sometimes three satellite airports for GA traffic with towers. If you close Buttonville Tower, there are literally 0 airports in the GTA with towers that a jet can fly into (unless you consider Oshawa, but it's quite removed from Toronto). Hell, even the "sprawling metropolis" has two towered airports, and they used to have three before City Center closed its doors. It's also not prohibitively expensive to operate into YEG like it is for YYZ.

I understand the US model is a little different than Canada, most smaller airports (essentially all Class D) use private contract towers with the operator picking up part of the bill and the FAA the other. Maybe this is a model Canada should adopt. FYI we do have one contract tower, Southport, with the military's contractor paying Serco for it (same contractor many US towers use).

Yup that was my point. And of course the world will keep turning, but that's not really the point I'd say, the point is to speak up when the system is under the threat of getting dismantled without clear tangible operational benefits for the users(pilots), either at the same location or somewhere else.
And maybe for the airport operator to now launch a court challenge is a bit too much; If the owner, corporation, finds the way to actually do something else with the land they would close the airport tomorrow towered or not. Having said that, if you normally operate out of Buttonville in these days, you'd have to agree that it is a sound decision and policy to have a control tower(or at least an FSS) there now.

[rookiepilot]

The jet owner, who likely has abundant choices, can A) fly into buttonville without a tower, or B) go to at least 4 other airports I can immediately think of in close proximity with a tower.

Not seeing the big issue.

[skybluetrek]

I don't really understand why, beyond traffic statistics, anyone as a pilot would be against, or indifferent to, keeping an atc facility open? Economics? Is it to help the government with the budget? Or perhaps to help the private company NavCanada to manage their resources in a better/more convenient way for them, expecting that by closing this tower they will open/improve facilities in some other more needed location?

Nav Canada is not a part of the government and I would agree that a costly tower operation at a location that doesn't meet criteria is a mis-use of my Nav Canada fees. Especially when other programs such as space based ADS-B are being developed by them. Where do you think the funding for that comes from?

Fair enough, I get it, and this is slightly off topic, but your comment made me think of the question... If pilots were given the option as for how to better spend the NavCanada budget, would they go with the ADB-S system implementation, or would they rather having more control towers at busy enough airports ???

[photofly]

I believe the intent behind ADSB is to avoid having to replace several EOL radar installations at astronomical costs, so you can have ADSB *and* more towers.

If you left it up to pilots, NavCanada would spend its budget dishing out hamburgers and free 100LL at every FSS, so perhaps budget decisions are best made by others.

[linecrew]

I believe the intent behind ADSB is to avoid having to replace several EOL radar installations at astronomical costs, so you can have ADSB *and* more towers.

I think ADS-B is more about vastly huge increases in surveillance coverage than what radar currently provides (doing it from space where line of site isn't an issue) rather than simply avoiding the cost of replacing old radar units.

[skybluetrek]

I believe the intent behind ADSB is to avoid having to replace several EOL radar installations at astronomical costs, so you can have ADSB *and* more towers.

If you left it up to pilots, NavCanada would spend its budget dishing out hamburgers and free 100LL at every FSS, so perhaps budget decisions are best made by others.

LOL

[Lotro]

Tower closing has been delayed. Rumour is the tower will remain open until Late October. Lawsuits take time.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/b ... -1.4659508

[linecrew]

Update on the tower closure:

https://www.skiesmag.com/news/safety-and-numbers/

[photofly]

Hard, also, for Torontair to bill landing fees when they won’t have a control tower to log movements for them.

[skybluetrek]

It's already a mess after 5pm, no one is respecting traffic circuit procedures for aerodromes within an MF with No airport advisory information. And there's also the overflies at less than 400ft above PA to stay within the E. Next summer should be interesting.

ATC privatization will only get worse and worse for GA.

[photofly]

I overflew there a month ago at 6pm on a Sunday when the tower was shut and it was a disaster waiting to happen.

[RyanF]

http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and ... ure-EN.pdf

[PlanePaully]

Buttonville pending Tower closure back in the news. Set to close Jan 3, 2019.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/pilots-fligh ... -1.4174247