I really don't understand the point of stating that Buttonville is in a built up area compared to Mirabel and Red Deer. What difference does it make? The real issue will be whether pilots operating there will remember the basics of operating in an MF.PlanePaully wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:45 pm Buttonville pending Tower closure back in the news. Set to close Jan 3, 2019.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/pilots-fligh ... -1.4174247
Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
The point is to frighten people who live in Markham. Journalists like to rile people. It sells papers and makes people share websites online. Of which this is a case in point.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
I would like the Tower to remain, but I am not optimistic about that possibility. Instead, I can at least hope that everybody knows about the change and adapts quickly and safely. Currently the tower is open 08:00 - 17:00. If you listen after hours, you will occasionally hear incoming traffic make a call to the Tower before realizing that it is closed. The ATIS says that the Tower is closed, so here you have a pilot flying into the zone who has not checked the NOTAMs, nor listened to the ATIS, and that to me, indicates that safety could be compromised. During the day, you can often also hear the Tower staff informing unaware pilots that the CZ is now capped at 2000 feet, instead of the former 2500. The first evening that I came back into CYKZ under the MF rules, I was mid-downwind for 33 (left traffic) after crossing mid-field, when another pilot coming in from the east announced that he was joining the "Right-Base 33." I am still a relatively new pilot, but I am pretty sure that joining a right-base in an MF zone is incorrect procedure, although it would have been the normally expected procedure for him had the tower still been open.linecrew wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:05 pmI really don't understand the point of stating that Buttonville is in a built up area compared to Mirabel and Red Deer. What difference does it make? The real issue will be whether pilots operating there will remember the basics of operating in an MF.PlanePaully wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:45 pm Buttonville pending Tower closure back in the news. Set to close Jan 3, 2019.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/pilots-fligh ... -1.4174247
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
But this is a pilot proficiency issue rather than a lack of tower issue. They should know what is happening at an airport they are flying into as per the way they were trained. It's like saying someone driving the wrong way down the 401is the fault of the anyone else but the driver.PlanePaully wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:23 pmThe first evening that I came back into CYKZ under the MF rules, I was mid-downwind for 33 (left traffic) after crossing mid-field, when another pilot coming in from the east announced that he was joining the "Right-Base 33." I am still a relatively new pilot, but I am pretty sure that joining a right-base in an MF zone is incorrect procedure, although it would have been the normally expected procedure for him had the tower still been open.linecrew wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:05 pmI really don't understand the point of stating that Buttonville is in a built up area compared to Mirabel and Red Deer. What difference does it make? The real issue will be whether pilots operating there will remember the basics of operating in an MF.PlanePaully wrote: ↑Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:45 pm Buttonville pending Tower closure back in the news. Set to close Jan 3, 2019.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/pilots-fligh ... -1.4174247
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Buttonville is used for flight training, I think it's reasonable to expect a pre-PPL student to mess up here and there, potentially leading to conflicts.
Another added complexity is that because the airspace is capped at 2,000, which is only 350 ft above the circuit altitude, you can no longer fly 500 ft above the circuit to descend on the dead side as per standard circuit entry procedures. What do you do? Either specialized entry routes, or fly at 2000, but then you're between a rock and a hard place: descend a bit and you risk a mid-air, climb a bit and you get a Class C violation...
Another added complexity is that because the airspace is capped at 2,000, which is only 350 ft above the circuit altitude, you can no longer fly 500 ft above the circuit to descend on the dead side as per standard circuit entry procedures. What do you do? Either specialized entry routes, or fly at 2000, but then you're between a rock and a hard place: descend a bit and you risk a mid-air, climb a bit and you get a Class C violation...
"Then from 1000 ft AGL until the final capture altitude, the A/C accelerates backwards up along the altitude profile with idle thrust"
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
There's no legal requirement to fly 500' above the circuit to join. There is a requirement not to overfly an aerodrome below 2000 agl unless taking off or landing or a bunch of other exemptions (602.96(4)). Other than that, it's all turns to the left unless notified and "conform to, or avoid", as usual.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
You're right from a legal standpoint, but if you look at it in the context of student pilots flying around, I definitely see how it may become confusing and risky. It's not unheard of to have students deviate from assigned altitudes by more than 100 ft, so all it takes is two of them deviate by just enough... Admittedly, having a tower at St Hubert didn't prevent this type of an accident.
"Then from 1000 ft AGL until the final capture altitude, the A/C accelerates backwards up along the altitude profile with idle thrust"
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Sorry where does it say the CZ is capped at 2000ft? Is the change in the Nov 8 CFS?
Daniel Gustin
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
gustind, good question, actually - I also see that the VTA and the CFS mention 2,500. I've done some digging and turns out it was AIC 23/18 which mentioned it. Interestingly, it appears to no longer be published online! They have 19, 20, 21, 22, 24, 25 but no 23!
"Then from 1000 ft AGL until the final capture altitude, the A/C accelerates backwards up along the altitude profile with idle thrust"
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
The CZ will be lowered to 2000 asl when the tower closes permanently, 0901z on 03 Jan 2019. That’s when the next publication cycle starts.
I don’t think on a practical level that this is a new issue; traffic has been restricted to 2000 and below in the CYKZ control zone more or less forever, because of traffic passing overhead into CYYZ.
I don’t think on a practical level that this is a new issue; traffic has been restricted to 2000 and below in the CYKZ control zone more or less forever, because of traffic passing overhead into CYYZ.
Last edited by photofly on Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
This AIP Supplement which had been out since September and replaced an AIC that apparently ran sometime before that.
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
FL_CH I've taken your lead by looking into AICs and have found this AIP Supplement:
http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and ... 50.pdf#top
http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and ... 50.pdf#top
To enhance aircraft traffic management at the Toronto Lester B. Pearson International Airport (CYYZ), the
ceiling of the Buttonville control zone (CZ) will be lowered to 2,000 feet above sea level (ASL). In addition, the
2,000-foot ASL Toronto terminal control area (TCA) boundary is being expanded to encompass most of the
Buttonville CZ (see map sketch below).
This change takes effect 13 September 2018, at 0901Z Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). Refer to this
AIP Supplement until the amended Toronto visual flight rules (VFR) terminal area chart (VTA) (AIR 1900) is
available in Spring 2019.
Daniel Gustin
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
That’s hilarious. That notice was published in September, but they forgot to tell the guy who updates the CFS (last edition valid from November 8 and still says 2500) or file a NOTAM :whistle:
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Thanks linecrew! Had I paid any attention to the notification I got saying you wrote before I submitted my post, I would have avoided the double post.
That being said, what is the general expectation for people to have when flying and being familiar to all products? If I walked in for a flight to YKZ with my VNC, CFS and map, I would not see anywhere the changes as stated in that supplement and the NOTAMs do not point to anything. Also, I have none of the above so I don't know if any changes have been reflected in those publications, I just assume they haven't.
That being said, what is the general expectation for people to have when flying and being familiar to all products? If I walked in for a flight to YKZ with my VNC, CFS and map, I would not see anywhere the changes as stated in that supplement and the NOTAMs do not point to anything. Also, I have none of the above so I don't know if any changes have been reflected in those publications, I just assume they haven't.
Daniel Gustin
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
If you look at this document which TC put out 8 years ago, no portion of the circuit pattern over the field is above circuit altitude, only at circuit altitude. In fact, it actually states that if the airport has an MF, as is the case in Buttonville after the tower closes, there are more suitable options for joining the circuit including from the downwind, left base or even straight in! (See the note on the bottom left in blue). I guess the idea being that if you're all on the MF (no NORDOs allowed) you can coordinate where you will be entering the circuit with your fellow aviators. As for the student pilots in the area, their instructors would have taught this all to them before they would have deemed them safe enough to fly solo, especially if it's their home airport.FL_CH wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:35 pm You're right from a legal standpoint, but if you look at it in the context of student pilots flying around, I definitely see how it may become confusing and risky. It's not unheard of to have students deviate from assigned altitudes by more than 100 ft, so all it takes is two of them deviate by just enough... Admittedly, having a tower at St Hubert didn't prevent this type of an accident.
Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
As everyone with a rec permit upwards is required to know, and as detailed in the AIM, those extra methods of joining the circuit apply only when there is an MF with a ground station in operation. As there is no ground station at CYKZ when the tower is closed, the only two “approved” methods of joining the circuit are via overhead to to the downwind, and an extended downwind if no conflict exists.it actually states that if the airport has an MF, as is the case in Buttonville after the tower closes, there are more suitable options for joining the circuit including from the downwind, left base or even straight in!
Crossing over to the dead side 500 above (or whatever the airspace will allow) is done not as part of the circuit but as the way to be able to fly back overhead at circuit altitude to join.
Every student pilot should know that, from before their first solo to an uncontrolled airfield. Perhaps it’s not the students who are going to be the problem?
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
Exactly. Well said.photofly wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:02 amAs everyone with a rec permit upwards is required to know, and as detailed in the AIM, those extra methods of joining the circuit apply only when there is an MF with a ground station in operation. As there is no ground station at CYKZ when the tower is closed, the only two “approved” methods of joining the circuit are via overhead to to the downwind, and an extended downwind if no conflict exists.it actually states that if the airport has an MF, as is the case in Buttonville after the tower closes, there are more suitable options for joining the circuit including from the downwind, left base or even straight in!
Crossing over to the dead side 500 above (or whatever the airspace will allow) is done not as part of the circuit but as the way to be able to fly back overhead at circuit altitude to join.
Every student pilot should know that, from before their first solo to an uncontrolled airfield. Perhaps it’s not the students who are going to be the problem?
Tower lets you know(after you've entered the Charly), happens on a daily basis pretty much.gustind wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:07 pm Thanks linecrew! Had I paid any attention to the notification I got saying you wrote before I submitted my post, I would have avoided the double post.
That being said, what is the general expectation for people to have when flying and being familiar to all products? If I walked in for a flight to YKZ with my VNC, CFS and map, I would not see anywhere the changes as stated in that supplement and the NOTAMs do not point to anything. Also, I have none of the above so I don't know if any changes have been reflected in those publications, I just assume they haven't.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
I stand corrected per the TC AIM RAC 4.5.2:photofly wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:02 am
As everyone with a rec permit upwards is required to know, and as detailed in the AIM, those extra methods of joining the circuit apply only when there is an MF with a ground station in operation. As there is no ground station at CYKZ when the tower is closed, the only two “approved” methods of joining the circuit are via overhead to to the downwind, and an extended downwind if no conflict exists.
"Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information is not available: Aircraft should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or traffic established within the circuit, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg."
That TC document I linked to in my above post doesn't clarify if there is a ground station or not.
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
There is no ground station. And I hope the fbo guys don't start giving advisory on the freq.linecrew wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:43 amI stand corrected per the TC AIM RAC 4.5.2:photofly wrote: ↑Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:02 am
As everyone with a rec permit upwards is required to know, and as detailed in the AIM, those extra methods of joining the circuit apply only when there is an MF with a ground station in operation. As there is no ground station at CYKZ when the tower is closed, the only two “approved” methods of joining the circuit are via overhead to to the downwind, and an extended downwind if no conflict exists.
"Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information is not available: Aircraft should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or traffic established within the circuit, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg."
That TC document I linked to in my above post doesn't clarify if there is a ground station or not.
Here's the Notice of Change you're looking for, someone had already posted it here before. http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and ... ure-EN.pdf
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Re: Buttonville Tower set to close in July!
I have a question for the big boys: If an unaware pilot busts the 2000 foot cap on the CZ and crosses the zone at 2500, will landing traffic for Pearson 23/24 at crossing at 3000 ft get a TCAS RA?